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Hair of the Dog Dave Clone


read 11207 times • 89 replies • posted 6/2/2009 8:50:03 AM

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OldSock
From the same idiot who made the Cable Car clone.

Making some Dave seemed like the only reasonable thing to do with some of my Adam clone. The freeze concentration only got it up to ~22% ABV, but that is still pretty good I guess. Now I just need to hold onto the (2) bottles for a decade or so...

Full write-up and pictures of the process: http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/2009/06/eisadam-hotd-dave-clone.html
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JoeMcPhee 8314:502
I don’t really understand why you think he’s an idiot, but as with Dave, there’s no way those are the correct ABVs. It’s a cool experiment, either way.
6/2/2009 9:01:25 AM

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gunhaver 1030:13
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
I donít really understand why you think heís an idiot, but as with Dave, thereís no way those are the correct ABVs. Itís a cool experiment, either way.

the idiot is coincidentally also the guy who created this thread
6/2/2009 9:08:41 AM

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OldSock
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
I donít really understand why you think heís an idiot, but as with Dave, thereís no way those are the correct ABVs. Itís a cool experiment, either way.


I’m the same guy who did the cable car clone (that is to say I am an idiot who spends hours making clones of obscure beers).

Why do you say the abv isn’t correct?
6/2/2009 9:09:56 AM

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JoeMcPhee 8314:502
Originally posted by OldSock
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
I donít really understand why you think heís an idiot, but as with Dave, thereís no way those are the correct ABVs. Itís a cool experiment, either way.


Iím the same guy who did the cable car clone (that is to say I am an idiot who spends hours making clones of obscure beers).

Why do you say the abv isnít correct?

You can’t measure ABV in these high alcohol beers my measuring OG/FG... it’s been well discussed here in the past. Even the ABV on a beer over 9-10% will be out by a significant amount.
6/2/2009 9:39:19 AM

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TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
Originally posted by OldSock
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
I donít really understand why you think heís an idiot, but as with Dave, thereís no way those are the correct ABVs. Itís a cool experiment, either way.


Iím the same guy who did the cable car clone (that is to say I am an idiot who spends hours making clones of obscure beers).

Why do you say the abv isnít correct?

You canít measure ABV in these high alcohol beers my measuring OG/FG... itís been well discussed here in the past. Even the ABV on a beer over 9-10% will be out by a significant amount.


You don’t measure them purely by OG/FG - only to a point. After that, they’re measured by volume of water removed and calculated accordingly.
6/2/2009 9:43:14 AM

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OldSock
Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
You canít measure ABV in these high alcohol beers my measuring OG/FG... itís been well discussed here in the past. Even the ABV on a beer over 9-10% will be out by a significant amount.


You donít measure them purely by OG/FG - only to a point. After that, theyíre measured by volume of water removed and calculated accordingly.


Exactly, I did not base this ABV calculation on measuring the gravity of wort above 1.100.

The beer originally was ~10% ABV (OG 1.099, FG 1.023). With the two freezings I removed slightly more than 50% of the volume (the gravity of the ice removed was under 1.005, so not much sugar/alcohol was lost). If I cut the volume by more than half by taking out 99% water, that should approximately double the alcohol (and dextrin) content.

The approximate doubling of the alcohol is confirmed by the fact that the FG more than doubled to 1.050. This means that the ABV would be 50/23 x 10% = 21.7%.

On top of the math, from a flavor perspective I got the alcohol burn right on the tongue more than in the back of the throat (even though I sampled the beer at pretty cold). That type of burn is something I associate with liquor/liqueurs more than even something like World Wide Stout.

Iím not saying I am positive that there is exactly 22% ABV in this beer, but all of the methods I have for determining the alcohol agree that it is in that ballpark.
6/2/2009 10:21:35 AM

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JoeMcPhee 8314:502
Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
Originally posted by OldSock
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
I donít really understand why you think heís an idiot, but as with Dave, thereís no way those are the correct ABVs. Itís a cool experiment, either way.


Iím the same guy who did the cable car clone (that is to say I am an idiot who spends hours making clones of obscure beers).

Why do you say the abv isnít correct?

You canít measure ABV in these high alcohol beers my measuring OG/FG... itís been well discussed here in the past. Even the ABV on a beer over 9-10% will be out by a significant amount.


You donít measure them purely by OG/FG - only to a point. After that, theyíre measured by volume of water removed and calculated accordingly.

yeah, but freezing removes some alcohol as well, which lowers the SG of the removed portion. I’m not saying they aren’t okay approximations, I’m just saying they aren’t completely correct and can be out by 5% ABV or more.
6/2/2009 10:25:04 AM

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puzzl 3249:138
Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
Originally posted by OldSock
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
I donít really understand why you think heís an idiot, but as with Dave, thereís no way those are the correct ABVs. Itís a cool experiment, either way.


Iím the same guy who did the cable car clone (that is to say I am an idiot who spends hours making clones of obscure beers).

Why do you say the abv isnít correct?

You canít measure ABV in these high alcohol beers my measuring OG/FG... itís been well discussed here in the past. Even the ABV on a beer over 9-10% will be out by a significant amount.


You donít measure them purely by OG/FG - only to a point. After that, theyíre measured by volume of water removed and calculated accordingly.


The problem is that it isn’t only water frozen off at all, especially in those quantities, which should be apparent to anyone who tries drinking some of the runoff.

This would actually be a good time for an experiment, though it’s probably too late: OldSock, do you still have the frozen out solution? Drink a pint of it and try to guess the alcohol content by how drunk you get, then let us know
6/2/2009 11:07:29 AM

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OldSock
Originally posted by puzzl
The problem is that it isnít only water frozen off at all, especially in those quantities, which should be apparent to anyone who tries drinking some of the runoff.

This would actually be a good time for an experiment, though itís probably too late: OldSock, do you still have the frozen out solution? Drink a pint of it and try to guess the alcohol content by how drunk you get, then let us know


Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
yeah, but freezing removes some alcohol as well, which lowers the SG of the removed portion. Iím not saying they arenít okay approximations, Iím just saying they arenít completely correct and can be out by 5% ABV or more.


Ah, but I can control for loss of alcohol to the ice.

For the first round of freezing I removed 50% as ice with a gravity of ~1.004 at 32 degrees (which corrects to about 1.003). So it got about 6.5% (3/23 = .13, .13/2 = 6.5%) of the alcohol/sugars and the concentrated portion got ~93.5%.

Since I reduced the volume by ~50%, and assuming 93.5% of the alcohol/sugars made it into the concentrated portion, that still puts it at ~18.7% ABV.

The second freeze neither removed as much ice nor was said ice as white. I did not take a gravity reading of this frozen portion so I can’t be sure, but it would not take much to get it over 20%.
6/2/2009 11:35:05 AM

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JoeMcPhee 8314:502
Originally posted by OldSock
Originally posted by puzzl
The problem is that it isnít only water frozen off at all, especially in those quantities, which should be apparent to anyone who tries drinking some of the runoff.

This would actually be a good time for an experiment, though itís probably too late: OldSock, do you still have the frozen out solution? Drink a pint of it and try to guess the alcohol content by how drunk you get, then let us know


Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
yeah, but freezing removes some alcohol as well, which lowers the SG of the removed portion. Iím not saying they arenít okay approximations, Iím just saying they arenít completely correct and can be out by 5% ABV or more.


Ah, but I can control for loss of alcohol to the ice.

For the first round of freezing I removed 50% as ice with a gravity of ~1.004 at 32 degrees (which corrects to about 1.003). So it got about 6.5% (3/23 = .13, .13/2 = 6.5%) of the alcohol/sugars and the concentrated portion got ~93.5%.

Since I reduced the volume by ~50%, and assuming 93.5% of the alcohol/sugars made it into the concentrated portion, that still puts it at ~18.7% ABV.

The second freeze neither removed as much ice nor was said ice as white. I did not take a gravity reading of this frozen portion so I canít be sure, but it would not take much to get it over 20%.

No, because ethanol has a density of 0.789 while a sugar solution has a density greater than 1.000, so when you measure the density of the solution, you’re measuring the average of both at the same time.
6/2/2009 11:54:45 AM

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