Hair of the Dog Dave Clone

Reads 12802 • Replies 89 • Started Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:50:03 AM CT

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puzzl
beers 3259 º places 138 º 14:05 Wed 6/3/2009

Originally posted by OldSock
Originally posted by puzzl
Donít you only need a few ounces to get it tested?


I think it would actually be really helpful to the community to have even this first data point to work with. This issue comes up over and over again, and to be able to say even for once instance "hey, this guy froze off 50% of a 10% beer and ended up with a 16% beer" would be extremely helpful.


Does anyone know where I could get this sort of testing done? Cost?



Looks like White Labs does it. They don’t mention a cost, but I’ve heard that it isn’t too expensive, like less than 20 bucks. I’d chip in 10 bucks towards the cost and I’m sure others here would too that are interested enough in the results.

 
OldSock
14:27 Wed 6/3/2009

Originally posted by puzzl
Looks like White Labs does it. They donít mention a cost, but Iíve heard that it isnít too expensive, like less than 20 bucks. Iíd chip in 10 bucks towards the cost and Iím sure others here would too that are interested enough in the results.


Sadly

LS3100 Alcohol {Ethanol} (GC Method) $75.00

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/Pro_Catalog.pdf

 
ryan
beers 3186 º places 13 º 14:35 Wed 6/3/2009

Originally posted by JoeMcPhee


You are always assuming that there is no ethanol in the liquid left behind though, which is clearly false. The freezing point of ethanol isnít the question... whatís the freezing point of a 50% solution of water and ethanol... by your calculations, youíll tell me itís the average of -173 and 32, which it isnít.
Freezing points of ethanol-water mixtures (by volume) in degrees C

0% 0
10% -4
20% -9
30% -15
40% -23
50% -32
60% -37
70% -48
80% -59
90% -73
100% -115

You donít just derive physical properties of mixtures from an average of the physical properties of the pure compounds. With sugar itís even more complicated because the freezing point of a sugar/water solution doesnít even vary in a straight line.

From the Merck Index, the freezing points of glycerol (a sugar) and water mixtures.
0% 0
10% -1,6
30% -9,5
50% -23
67% -46,5
80% -20,3
90% -1,6
100% 17,8

When you add ethanol to this mixture, the system becomes even more complicated and I canít find any information on it (although it has probably been done at some point).


a. I’m not assuming anything about the liquid that is left behind. Please show me where you think that I did.

b. By my calculations it would be the average of -173 and 32? Bullshit. Where exactly did I tell you anything about how I would calculate the freezing point?

c. "With sugar itís even more complicated because the freezing point of a sugar/water solution doesnít even vary in a straight line." Impressive display of misleading data! You must be in politics or journalism. Over the range of values that we’d care about, the freezing point of a sugar and water mixture is very predictable and well behaved.

d. I hadn’t bothered to calculate or look up the freezing point for ethanol/water mixtures yet, but looking at that table, it’s clear you would want to estimate the amount of sugar in the final product and adjust the water/sugar freezing point. Sure, this is only a first order calculation, but given the limitations of the temperature measurement, it’s going to be close enough.

If you really wanted to get an accurate measurement, it would be very easy to model the freezing point based on the FG and ABV, and all you would need is vodka, water, table sugar, an accurate thermometer and scale, and enough free time to take 50ish data points.

 
JoeMcPhee
beers 9267 º places 531 º 14:41 Wed 6/3/2009

Originally posted by ryan
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee


You are always assuming that there is no ethanol in the liquid left behind though, which is clearly false. The freezing point of ethanol isnít the question... whatís the freezing point of a 50% solution of water and ethanol... by your calculations, youíll tell me itís the average of -173 and 32, which it isnít.
Freezing points of ethanol-water mixtures (by volume) in degrees C

0% 0
10% -4
20% -9
30% -15
40% -23
50% -32
60% -37
70% -48
80% -59
90% -73
100% -115

You donít just derive physical properties of mixtures from an average of the physical properties of the pure compounds. With sugar itís even more complicated because the freezing point of a sugar/water solution doesnít even vary in a straight line.

From the Merck Index, the freezing points of glycerol (a sugar) and water mixtures.
0% 0
10% -1,6
30% -9,5
50% -23
67% -46,5
80% -20,3
90% -1,6
100% 17,8

When you add ethanol to this mixture, the system becomes even more complicated and I canít find any information on it (although it has probably been done at some point).


a. Iím not assuming anything about the liquid that is left behind. Please show me where you think that I did.

b. By my calculations it would be the average of -173 and 32? Bullshit. Where exactly did I tell you anything about how I would calculate the freezing point?

c. "With sugar itís even more complicated because the freezing point of a sugar/water solution doesnít even vary in a straight line." Impressive display of misleading data! You must be in politics or journalism. Over the range of values that weíd care about, the freezing point of a sugar and water mixture is very predictable and well behaved.

d. I hadnít bothered to calculate or look up the freezing point for ethanol/water mixtures yet, but looking at that table, itís clear you would want to estimate the amount of sugar in the final product and adjust the water/sugar freezing point. Sure, this is only a first order calculation, but given the limitations of the temperature measurement, itís going to be close enough.

If you really wanted to get an accurate measurement, it would be very easy to model the freezing point based on the FG and ABV, and all you would need is vodka, water, table sugar, an accurate thermometer and scale, and enough free time to take 50ish data points.

I’m in science, FWIW... every time this comes up, people try to use the OG/FG equations to get the answer, and my point is, that those equations assume a "normal" strength brew (say less than 10% ABV final) and they are essentially useless for measurements of high-gravity brews or of anything where there was a concentration step.

If I offended you, I apologize. But the glycerol/water data aren’t even close to linear, even between 0-30%, about the range we’d be talking about for a high-gravity brew.

On the last point we agree.

 
ryan
beers 3186 º places 13 º 15:27 Wed 6/3/2009

Originally posted by JoeMcPhee

Iím in science, FWIW... every time this comes up, people try to use the OG/FG equations to get the answer, and my point is, that those equations assume a "normal" strength brew (say less than 10% ABV final) and they are essentially useless for measurements of high-gravity brews or of anything where there was a concentration step.

If I offended you, I apologize. But the glycerol/water data arenít even close to linear, even between 0-30%, about the range weíd be talking about for a high-gravity brew.

On the last point we agree.



I agree that OG/FG calculations break down for high ABV beers because the tables that people use aren’t appropriate for them. Granted, it would be very simply for a modified table or tables to be made that would be much more accurate.

Well, if you’re a Chemist, then you certainly would know better than me about freezing point depression calculations and their limitations, but it seems to me that a very good approximation could be made with it. Especially if you use the actual data to model the freezing point of sugar/water instead of assuming it’s linear. Again though, I don’t know the cut-off for those calculations and if any second order corrections are known, etc.

The sugar/water data doesn’t need to be linear to be useful, just need to be modeled accurately by a mathematical equation.

 
Ty5592
beers 1018 º places 1 º 15:27 Wed 6/3/2009

Battle of the minds:
Mr. Micobiologist meet Mr. Physicist.

 
wetherel
beers 1863 º places 84 º 18:52 Wed 6/3/2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akAck2rfNUg

 
auerbrau
beers 3203 º places 307 º 21:23 Wed 6/3/2009

Inspired by this thread, I iced out a 12 oz bottle of 2007 Paulaner Salvator.

Using empty seltzer bottles (where the beer was frozen in under CO2) and a tank of CO2 with the carbonator attachment, I was able to carbonate the results to delightful enjoyment!

Super malty, a bit alcoholic, and not too sweet. The added carbonation really helped cut through the malt.

I’ve got my homebrewed Saison in the freezer right now. I will likely proceed to continue to ice out beers for the remainder of the week.

 
auerbrau
beers 3203 º places 307 º 21:23 Wed 6/3/2009

Inspired by this thread, I iced out a 12 oz bottle of 2007 Paulaner Salvator.

Using empty seltzer bottles (where the beer was frozen in under CO2) and a tank of CO2 with the carbonator attachment, I was able to carbonate the results to delightful enjoyment!

Super malty, a bit alcoholic, and not too sweet. The added carbonation really helped cut through the malt.

I’ve got my homebrewed Saison in the freezer right now. I will likely proceed to continue to ice out beers for the remainder of the week.

 
joet
admin
beers 2534 º places 103 º 22:35 Wed 6/3/2009

Originally posted by ryan
The sugar/water data doesnít need to be linear to be useful, just need to be modeled accurately by a mathematical equation.


And what kind of sugars - beer may have several. And what about the inclusion of proteins and alcohol? It might not have to be linear to be useful but it would have to, in some way, model the measured sample.

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