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How do you ferment your sour beers?


read 2840 times • 94 replies • posted 12/10/2013 9:19:09 AM

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HornyDevil
Originally posted by CLevar
Originally posted by HornyDevil
All that they do is inhibit the one microbe that you actually WANT to proliferate in your beer. Lactobacillus.


Actually, that statement is decidedly false, at least in the broad sense that you have claimed here. Not all species of Lactobacillus are hop sensitive.


You know were talking about beer here, right? So were talking about L. Delbrueckii.
12/10/2013 1:07:02 PM

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Mcc1654
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by CLevar
Originally posted by HornyDevil
All that they do is inhibit the one microbe that you actually WANT to proliferate in your beer. Lactobacillus.


Actually, that statement is decidedly false, at least in the broad sense that you have claimed here. Not all species of Lactobacillus are hop sensitive.


You know were talking about beer here, right? So were talking about L. Delbrueckii.


Not true. For example Cascade Brewing uses L. Brevis which can be more hop tolerant.
12/10/2013 1:13:06 PM

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CLevar 375:10
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by CLevar
Originally posted by HornyDevil
All that they do is inhibit the one microbe that you actually WANT to proliferate in your beer. Lactobacillus.


Actually, that statement is decidedly false, at least in the broad sense that you have claimed here. Not all species of Lactobacillus are hop sensitive.


You know were talking about beer here, right? So were talking about L. Delbrueckii.


Wrong on so many levels. For example, L. brevis is a very common beer "spoilage" organism. Depending on the strain, it is often hop resistant due to the presence of a ATP dependent multidrug eflux pump(HorA, if you are interested) often encoded on a plasmid.
12/10/2013 1:18:40 PM

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HornyDevil
Originally posted by CLevar
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by CLevar
Originally posted by HornyDevil
All that they do is inhibit the one microbe that you actually WANT to proliferate in your beer. Lactobacillus.


Actually, that statement is decidedly false, at least in the broad sense that you have claimed here. Not all species of Lactobacillus are hop sensitive.


You know were talking about beer here, right? So were talking about L. Delbrueckii.


Wrong on so many levels. For example, L. brevis is a very common beer "spoilage" organism. Depending on the strain, it is often hop resistant due to the presence of a ATP dependent multidrug eflux pump(HorA, if you are interested) often encoded on a plasmid.


Feeling a bit thick today, are we? OK, lets spell it out for you. Which Lactobacillus species is most commonly used in sour beer production? Is it L. Brevis? I dont think so.
12/10/2013 1:34:36 PM

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HornyDevil
Just thought Id point out that at this point nobody else has posted anything regarding the original post. Instead, they chose to make it a debate about hopping sour beer, which I had no intention of doing, but which Ill be happy to argue about for how ever long it takes. Thanks, fellas!
12/10/2013 1:40:12 PM

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Cliff 399:68
I just brew a simple base belgian blonde/saison or dark (with a small does of bittering hops) and then add whatever treatments I want, including a variety of bugs and dregs, fruit, oak, liquor/wine soaked oak etc. I taste every 4 weeks or so and bottle like normal when I think it tastes good. I have had hits and misses but the expermentation has been fun.
12/10/2013 1:48:41 PM

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HornyDevil
Originally posted by Cliff
I just brew a simple base belgian blonde/saison or dark (with a small does of bittering hops) and then add whatever treatments I want, including a variety of bugs and dregs, fruit, oak, liquor/wine soaked oak etc. I taste every 4 weeks or so and bottle like normal when I think it tastes good. I have had hits and misses but the expermentation has been fun.


Care to post a recipe or three?
12/10/2013 1:56:29 PM

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CLevar 375:10
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by CLevar
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by CLevar
Originally posted by HornyDevil
All that they do is inhibit the one microbe that you actually WANT to proliferate in your beer. Lactobacillus.


Actually, that statement is decidedly false, at least in the broad sense that you have claimed here. Not all species of Lactobacillus are hop sensitive.


You know were talking about beer here, right? So were talking about L. Delbrueckii.


Wrong on so many levels. For example, L. brevis is a very common beer "spoilage" organism. Depending on the strain, it is often hop resistant due to the presence of a ATP dependent multidrug eflux pump(HorA, if you are interested) often encoded on a plasmid.


Feeling a bit thick today, are we? OK, lets spell it out for you. Which Lactobacillus species is most commonly used in sour beer production? Is it L. Brevis? I dont think so.


Lets pick this apart, shall we?

In reference to a statement about hop sensitivity and L. brevis you made the claim that "were talking about beer here...So were talking about L. Delbrueckii." implicitly claiming that L. del. is the only Lacto. species or strain used to sour beer. This is false.

When I pointed that out, you then stated that L. del. is "most commonly used" Lacto. species in sour beer production. This a perfect example of moving the goalposts, and it really depends on the circumstances. In hopped wort that has been inoculated with a diverse culture of yeast and bacteria, perhaps those resident in barrels, or those that fall from the air, L. brevis will indeed be present. Supporting this claim, when we examine the work of Martens, Verachtert, etc., we see that in many cases, there are multiple species and strains of Lacto. present, including both L. del. & L. brevis. If you are pitching a pure culture of L. del., then sure, it will be dominant. But when we are talking about fermentation of wort with a "pitch" of unknown diversity, its simply not accurate to make broad claims regarding the activity and presence (or lack thereof) of various organisms.

Im sorry that you think Im being thick; Ive presented you with published research, and you have been responding with unsubstantiated claims and anecdotal evidence. So, until you are willing to actually discuss the vast body of research on the subject of sour fermentation, Im done here.

12/10/2013 2:03:38 PM

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MatSciGuy 907:
If you dont pitch it, its not there, because microbiology isnt real.
12/10/2013 2:08:35 PM

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Cliff 399:68
I will when I remember to bring my notes to work.
12/10/2013 2:17:49 PM

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