New York Times calls for Anheuser Busch boycott

Reads 3544 • Replies 37 • Started Tuesday, May 08, 2012 10:41:39 AM CT

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joet
admin
beers 2538 º places 104 º 10:41 Tue 5/8/2012

Battle of the heavyweights here... And thanks to Adam Nason at BeerPulse for bringing this to our attention.
http://beerpulse.com/2012/05/new-york-times-columnist-calls-for-anheuser-busch-boycott/

But this is about the Pine Ridge incident? Really? A national boycott because of this local incident based on a claim many of us centrists might take issue with or at least are not in strong support of? Really?

--
AFTER seeing Anheuser-Busch’s devastating exploitation of American Indians, I’m done with its beer.

The human toll is evident here in Whiteclay: men and women staggering on the street, or passed out, whispers of girls traded for alcohol. The town has a population of about 10 people, but it sells more than four million cans of beer and malt liquor annually — because it is the main channel through which alcohol illegally enters the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation a few steps away.

Pine Ridge, one of America’s largest Indian reservations, bans alcohol. The Oglala Sioux who live there struggle to keep alcohol out, going so far as to arrest people for possession of a can of beer. But the tribe has no jurisdiction over Whiteclay because it is just outside the reservation boundary.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/opinion/sunday/kristof-a-battle-with-the-brewers.html

 
Sevenlee
beers 1762 º places 78 º 11:20 Tue 5/8/2012

You don’t have to ask me twice to boycott AB. Already there
The problem I have with this is why they’re boycotting. I boycott them cause they make shit beer but lines like this really bother me:

..."and fuels alcoholism, crime and misery there"

Alcohol also fuels stunning rates of domestic violence, suicide and crime on the reservation

So by this logic, once someone consumes alcohol they are then officially absolved of all their proceeding actions?
Please, PLEASE STOP blaming alcohol and their makers for these problems! I’m a very firm beliver that we are responsible for OUR OWN actions! and laws and society should reflect that (unfortunately, it doesn’t) Sure we’ve all made a questionable desicion or two when we’ve had a couple but when people say "the evil alcohol made me do it", that’s when I call bullshit.

I’m not American so I not going to give an opinion about Indians either way but if people can’t handle their drink, that’s not Budweiser’s fault. If they were all drinking vodka or Scotch instead, would he call a boycott of Smirnoff or Johnny Walker?

I think this is a local problem that locals need to address and the people who have alcholic issue need to get the help they need. Calling for a nation-wide boycott of AB is a bit rough on them to be fair. We all know they’re a cold, heartless, faceless and money-grubbing corporation that has an unhealthy desire to win, annihilate the competition and make money at all costs but a statement like:

...a giant corporation’s business model here is based on violating tribal rules and destroying the Indians’ way of living.

...is misleading and just simply untrue.

 
DuffMan
beers 9542 º places 335 º 11:43 Tue 5/8/2012

Originally posted by Sevenlee
You don’t have to ask me twice to boycott AB. Already there
The problem I have with this is why they’re boycotting. I boycott them cause they make shit beer but lines like this really bother me:

..."and fuels alcoholism, crime and misery there"

Alcohol also fuels stunning rates of domestic violence, suicide and crime on the reservation

So by this logic, once someone consumes alcohol they are then officially absolved of all their proceeding actions?
Please, PLEASE STOP blaming alcohol and their makers for these problems! I’m a very firm beliver that we are responsible for OUR OWN actions! and laws and society should reflect that (unfortunately, it doesn’t) Sure we’ve all made a questionable desicion or two when we’ve had a couple but when people say "the evil alcohol made me do it", that’s when I call bullshit.

I’m not American so I not going to give an opinion about Indians either way but if people can’t handle their drink, that’s not Budweiser’s fault. If they were all drinking vodka or Scotch instead, would he call a boycott of Smirnoff or Johnny Walker?

I think this is a local problem that locals need to address and the people who have alcholic issue need to get the help they need. Calling for a nation-wide boycott of AB is a bit rough on them to be fair. We all know they’re a cold, heartless, faceless and money-grubbing corporation that has an unhealthy desire to win, annihilate the competition and make money at all costs but a statement like:

...a giant corporation’s business model here is based on violating tribal rules and destroying the Indians’ way of living.

...is misleading and just simply untrue.

+1
Very well stated. A much hated and widely maligned corporation makes for an easy scapegoat, but this is a poorly presented argument. First-nations and aboriginal people face tremendous challenges with respect to addiction and other health problems (not just in the U.S., but also in Canada and Australia and New Zealand), and it is such a complex issue that to blame a single manufacturer of alcohol is actually harmful in that it grossly oversimplifies a very complicated problem.

 
mcberko
beers 14406 º places 821 º 11:51 Tue 5/8/2012

Originally posted by Sevenlee
So by this logic, once someone consumes alcohol they are then officially absolved of all their proceeding actions?
Please, PLEASE STOP blaming alcohol and their makers for these problems! I’m a very firm beliver that we are responsible for OUR OWN actions! and laws and society should reflect that (unfortunately, it doesn’t) Sure we’ve all made a questionable desicion or two when we’ve had a couple but when people say "the evil alcohol made me do it", that’s when I call bullshit.

The causal link between alcohol abuse and violence is a bit fuzzy, since the true fundamental root causes of violent behaviour lies in more in socioeconomic factors. For example, if you research the work of James Gilligan (specifically his book called Violence: Our Deadly Epidemic and Its Causes) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gilligan), we find a much stronger causal link between the deeply neglected, physically and sexually abusive upbringing of children to violence.

That you’re a firm believer that we are individually responsible for our actions is a misguided view actually. When we understand that our choices, beliefs and actions are all causes by prior events (our childhood, friends, socioeconomic factors and genes to a lesser extent), we realize that the idea of "free will" is a gross illusion. Check out this book for example: http://www.samharris.org/free-will

And actually, our society is structured on this illusion that we each are the autonomous author of our choices, beliefs and actions. The entire legal system along with market economics is all predicated that we have free will. We do not. And understanding this illusion as a society would entail completely restructuring our entire social model.

 
DuffMan
beers 9542 º places 335 º 12:00 Tue 5/8/2012


And actually, our society is structured on this illusion that we each are the autonomous author of our choices, beliefs and actions. The entire legal system along with market economics is all predicated that we have free will. We do not. And understanding this illusion as a society would entail completely restructuring our entire social model.


Descartes is rolling in his grave!
So just to be clear, you’re saying that beer IS to blame for all of life’s problems? Or neglect and sexual abuse? Not sure where this falls into the discussion about the OP...

 
mcberko
beers 14406 º places 821 º 12:07 Tue 5/8/2012

Originally posted by DuffMan

And actually, our society is structured on this illusion that we each are the autonomous author of our choices, beliefs and actions. The entire legal system along with market economics is all predicated that we have free will. We do not. And understanding this illusion as a society would entail completely restructuring our entire social model.


Descartes is rolling in his grave!
So just to be clear, you’re saying that beer IS to blame for all of life’s problems? Or neglect and sexual abuse? Not sure where this falls into the discussion about the OP...

No, I was just commenting on Sevenlee’s statement that we are all individually responsible for our actions.

And no, alcohol is not the true root cause of most incidences of violence, according to the data. To truly understand this would entail an extremely long analysis which is beyond the point of this thread...

 
peteinSD
beers 1461 º places 57 º 12:20 Tue 5/8/2012

here is the complaint for the lawsuit:





http://www.keloland.com/ClassLibrary/Page/News/files/Oglala%20Sioux%20Tribe%20Lawsuit.pdf





interesting but it’s hard to see how they can connect the dots to assign liability against individuals and companies that engaged in legal activity because those individuals and companies either knew or should have known that third parties used the legally purchased alcohol for illegal purposes.



 
Sevenlee
beers 1762 º places 78 º 12:55 Tue 5/8/2012

Originally posted by mcberko
Originally posted by Sevenlee
So by this logic, once someone consumes alcohol they are then officially absolved of all their proceeding actions?
Please, PLEASE STOP blaming alcohol and their makers for these problems! I’m a very firm beliver that we are responsible for OUR OWN actions! and laws and society should reflect that (unfortunately, it doesn’t) Sure we’ve all made a questionable desicion or two when we’ve had a couple but when people say "the evil alcohol made me do it", that’s when I call bullshit.

The causal link between alcohol abuse and violence is a bit fuzzy, since the true fundamental root causes of violent behaviour lies in more in socioeconomic factors. For example, if you research the work of James Gilligan (specifically his book called Violence: Our Deadly Epidemic and Its Causes) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gilligan), we find a much stronger causal link between the deeply neglected, physically and sexually abusive upbringing of children to violence.

That you’re a firm believer that we are individually responsible for our actions is a misguided view actually. When we understand that our choices, beliefs and actions are all causes by prior events (our childhood, friends, socioeconomic factors and genes to a lesser extent), we realize that the idea of "free will" is a gross illusion. Check out this book for example: http://www.samharris.org/free-will

And actually, our society is structured on this illusion that we each are the autonomous author of our choices, beliefs and actions. The entire legal system along with market economics is all predicated that we have free will. We do not. And understanding this illusion as a society would entail completely restructuring our entire social model.


Certainly, if you want to talk philosophy, we can jump over to ratephilosophicalquestions.com and expand our conversation in the forums there

I guess the free will I’m talking about is the simple, straight forward personal desicion to either do something or not while intoxicated or not. As you stated, it’s really beyond the scope of the thread here to talk in such detail about the situation.

Let’s at least just agree that alcohol shouldn’t be flat-out blamed for people’s behaviour? ?

 
jegross2
beers 1 º 13:10 Tue 5/8/2012

Now now. Can’t we just boycoy cheat AB beer and preserve the goose island brand ;)

 
brokensail
beers 16055 º places 1347 º 13:16 Tue 5/8/2012

Originally posted by DuffMan

And actually, our society is structured on this illusion that we each are the autonomous author of our choices, beliefs and actions. The entire legal system along with market economics is all predicated that we have free will. We do not. And understanding this illusion as a society would entail completely restructuring our entire social model.


Descartes is rolling in his grave!
So just to be clear, you’re saying that beer IS to blame for all of life’s problems? Or neglect and sexual abuse? Not sure where this falls into the discussion about the OP...


I believe the point he is making is that certain factors predispose you to participate in certain behaviors, make certain decisions, etc. Growing up with no money, in a violent neighborhood, without positive parental/adult influence in your life, etc. is likely going to affect the choices you make and your ability to make the "right" ones throughout your life.

 
miketd
places 125 º 13:24 Tue 5/8/2012

Pure garbage, but pretty much what I expect from that rag.