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New York Times calls for Anheuser Busch boycott

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joet
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beers 2409 º places 100 º 10:41 Tue 5/8/2012

Battle of the heavyweights here... And thanks to Adam Nason at BeerPulse for bringing this to our attention.
http://beerpulse.com/2012/05/new-york-times-columnist-calls-for-anheuser-busch-boycott/

But this is about the Pine Ridge incident? Really? A national boycott because of this local incident based on a claim many of us centrists might take issue with or at least are not in strong support of? Really?

--
AFTER seeing Anheuser-Buschís devastating exploitation of American Indians, Iím done with its beer.

The human toll is evident here in Whiteclay: men and women staggering on the street, or passed out, whispers of girls traded for alcohol. The town has a population of about 10 people, but it sells more than four million cans of beer and malt liquor annually ó because it is the main channel through which alcohol illegally enters the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation a few steps away.

Pine Ridge, one of Americaís largest Indian reservations, bans alcohol. The Oglala Sioux who live there struggle to keep alcohol out, going so far as to arrest people for possession of a can of beer. But the tribe has no jurisdiction over Whiteclay because it is just outside the reservation boundary.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/opinion/sunday/kristof-a-battle-with-the-brewers.html

 
Sevenlee
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beers 1572 º places 72 º 11:20 Tue 5/8/2012

You donít have to ask me twice to boycott AB. Already there
The problem I have with this is why theyíre boycotting. I boycott them cause they make shit beer but lines like this really bother me:

..."and fuels alcoholism, crime and misery there"

Alcohol also fuels stunning rates of domestic violence, suicide and crime on the reservation

So by this logic, once someone consumes alcohol they are then officially absolved of all their proceeding actions?
Please, PLEASE STOP blaming alcohol and their makers for these problems! Iím a very firm beliver that we are responsible for OUR OWN actions! and laws and society should reflect that (unfortunately, it doesnít) Sure weíve all made a questionable desicion or two when weíve had a couple but when people say "the evil alcohol made me do it", thatís when I call bullshit.

Iím not American so I not going to give an opinion about Indians either way but if people canít handle their drink, thatís not Budweiserís fault. If they were all drinking vodka or Scotch instead, would he call a boycott of Smirnoff or Johnny Walker?

I think this is a local problem that locals need to address and the people who have alcholic issue need to get the help they need. Calling for a nation-wide boycott of AB is a bit rough on them to be fair. We all know theyíre a cold, heartless, faceless and money-grubbing corporation that has an unhealthy desire to win, annihilate the competition and make money at all costs but a statement like:

...a giant corporationís business model here is based on violating tribal rules and destroying the Indiansí way of living.

...is misleading and just simply untrue.

 
DuffMan
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beers 8069 º places 322 º 11:43 Tue 5/8/2012

Originally posted by Sevenlee
You donít have to ask me twice to boycott AB. Already there
The problem I have with this is why theyíre boycotting. I boycott them cause they make shit beer but lines like this really bother me:

..."and fuels alcoholism, crime and misery there"

Alcohol also fuels stunning rates of domestic violence, suicide and crime on the reservation

So by this logic, once someone consumes alcohol they are then officially absolved of all their proceeding actions?
Please, PLEASE STOP blaming alcohol and their makers for these problems! Iím a very firm beliver that we are responsible for OUR OWN actions! and laws and society should reflect that (unfortunately, it doesnít) Sure weíve all made a questionable desicion or two when weíve had a couple but when people say "the evil alcohol made me do it", thatís when I call bullshit.

Iím not American so I not going to give an opinion about Indians either way but if people canít handle their drink, thatís not Budweiserís fault. If they were all drinking vodka or Scotch instead, would he call a boycott of Smirnoff or Johnny Walker?

I think this is a local problem that locals need to address and the people who have alcholic issue need to get the help they need. Calling for a nation-wide boycott of AB is a bit rough on them to be fair. We all know theyíre a cold, heartless, faceless and money-grubbing corporation that has an unhealthy desire to win, annihilate the competition and make money at all costs but a statement like:

...a giant corporationís business model here is based on violating tribal rules and destroying the Indiansí way of living.

...is misleading and just simply untrue.

+1
Very well stated. A much hated and widely maligned corporation makes for an easy scapegoat, but this is a poorly presented argument. First-nations and aboriginal people face tremendous challenges with respect to addiction and other health problems (not just in the U.S., but also in Canada and Australia and New Zealand), and it is such a complex issue that to blame a single manufacturer of alcohol is actually harmful in that it grossly oversimplifies a very complicated problem.

 
mcberko
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beers 9754 º places 512 º 11:51 Tue 5/8/2012

Originally posted by Sevenlee
So by this logic, once someone consumes alcohol they are then officially absolved of all their proceeding actions?
Please, PLEASE STOP blaming alcohol and their makers for these problems! Iím a very firm beliver that we are responsible for OUR OWN actions! and laws and society should reflect that (unfortunately, it doesnít) Sure weíve all made a questionable desicion or two when weíve had a couple but when people say "the evil alcohol made me do it", thatís when I call bullshit.

The causal link between alcohol abuse and violence is a bit fuzzy, since the true fundamental root causes of violent behaviour lies in more in socioeconomic factors. For example, if you research the work of James Gilligan (specifically his book called Violence: Our Deadly Epidemic and Its Causes) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gilligan), we find a much stronger causal link between the deeply neglected, physically and sexually abusive upbringing of children to violence.

That youíre a firm believer that we are individually responsible for our actions is a misguided view actually. When we understand that our choices, beliefs and actions are all causes by prior events (our childhood, friends, socioeconomic factors and genes to a lesser extent), we realize that the idea of "free will" is a gross illusion. Check out this book for example: http://www.samharris.org/free-will

And actually, our society is structured on this illusion that we each are the autonomous author of our choices, beliefs and actions. The entire legal system along with market economics is all predicated that we have free will. We do not. And understanding this illusion as a society would entail completely restructuring our entire social model.

 
DuffMan
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beers 8069 º places 322 º 12:00 Tue 5/8/2012


And actually, our society is structured on this illusion that we each are the autonomous author of our choices, beliefs and actions. The entire legal system along with market economics is all predicated that we have free will. We do not. And understanding this illusion as a society would entail completely restructuring our entire social model.


Descartes is rolling in his grave!
So just to be clear, youíre saying that beer IS to blame for all of lifeís problems? Or neglect and sexual abuse? Not sure where this falls into the discussion about the OP...

 
mcberko
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beers 9754 º places 512 º 12:07 Tue 5/8/2012

Originally posted by DuffMan

And actually, our society is structured on this illusion that we each are the autonomous author of our choices, beliefs and actions. The entire legal system along with market economics is all predicated that we have free will. We do not. And understanding this illusion as a society would entail completely restructuring our entire social model.


Descartes is rolling in his grave!
So just to be clear, youíre saying that beer IS to blame for all of lifeís problems? Or neglect and sexual abuse? Not sure where this falls into the discussion about the OP...

No, I was just commenting on Sevenleeís statement that we are all individually responsible for our actions.

And no, alcohol is not the true root cause of most incidences of violence, according to the data. To truly understand this would entail an extremely long analysis which is beyond the point of this thread...

 
peteinSD
beers 1433 º places 57 º 12:20 Tue 5/8/2012

here is the complaint for the lawsuit:





http://www.keloland.com/ClassLibrary/Page/News/files/Oglala%20Sioux%20Tribe%20Lawsuit.pdf





interesting but itís hard to see how they can connect the dots to assign liability against individuals and companies that engaged in legal activity because those individuals and companies either knew or should have known that third parties used the legally purchased alcohol for illegal purposes.



 
Sevenlee
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beers 1572 º places 72 º 12:55 Tue 5/8/2012

Originally posted by mcberko
Originally posted by Sevenlee
So by this logic, once someone consumes alcohol they are then officially absolved of all their proceeding actions?
Please, PLEASE STOP blaming alcohol and their makers for these problems! Iím a very firm beliver that we are responsible for OUR OWN actions! and laws and society should reflect that (unfortunately, it doesnít) Sure weíve all made a questionable desicion or two when weíve had a couple but when people say "the evil alcohol made me do it", thatís when I call bullshit.

The causal link between alcohol abuse and violence is a bit fuzzy, since the true fundamental root causes of violent behaviour lies in more in socioeconomic factors. For example, if you research the work of James Gilligan (specifically his book called Violence: Our Deadly Epidemic and Its Causes) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gilligan), we find a much stronger causal link between the deeply neglected, physically and sexually abusive upbringing of children to violence.

That youíre a firm believer that we are individually responsible for our actions is a misguided view actually. When we understand that our choices, beliefs and actions are all causes by prior events (our childhood, friends, socioeconomic factors and genes to a lesser extent), we realize that the idea of "free will" is a gross illusion. Check out this book for example: http://www.samharris.org/free-will

And actually, our society is structured on this illusion that we each are the autonomous author of our choices, beliefs and actions. The entire legal system along with market economics is all predicated that we have free will. We do not. And understanding this illusion as a society would entail completely restructuring our entire social model.


Certainly, if you want to talk philosophy, we can jump over to ratephilosophicalquestions.com and expand our conversation in the forums there

I guess the free will Iím talking about is the simple, straight forward personal desicion to either do something or not while intoxicated or not. As you stated, itís really beyond the scope of the thread here to talk in such detail about the situation.

Letís at least just agree that alcohol shouldnít be flat-out blamed for peopleís behaviour? ?

 
jegross2
beers 1 º 13:10 Tue 5/8/2012

Now now. Canít we just boycoy cheat AB beer and preserve the goose island brand ;)

 
brokensail
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beers 13679 º places 1134 º 13:16 Tue 5/8/2012

Originally posted by DuffMan

And actually, our society is structured on this illusion that we each are the autonomous author of our choices, beliefs and actions. The entire legal system along with market economics is all predicated that we have free will. We do not. And understanding this illusion as a society would entail completely restructuring our entire social model.


Descartes is rolling in his grave!
So just to be clear, youíre saying that beer IS to blame for all of lifeís problems? Or neglect and sexual abuse? Not sure where this falls into the discussion about the OP...


I believe the point he is making is that certain factors predispose you to participate in certain behaviors, make certain decisions, etc. Growing up with no money, in a violent neighborhood, without positive parental/adult influence in your life, etc. is likely going to affect the choices you make and your ability to make the "right" ones throughout your life.

 
miketd
places 125 º 13:24 Tue 5/8/2012

Pure garbage, but pretty much what I expect from that rag.