Success in Saisons

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Message Bontus beers 1044 º places 20 º 05:23 Wed 2/12/2014 1) Some wheat for its tartness and haze, alternative spelt. No caramalts or darker. 2) S33 yeast 3) <6,5% ABV
Message CLevar places 23 º 06:16 Wed 2/12/2014 Originally posted by HornyDevil Putting Brett in your saison (and lacto and pedio for that matter) is simply the "cool" thing to do these days and has little to do with the character of the historical beer. If everyone were SO worried about the historical accuracy of their beers, the VAST majority of Old World styles would be funky and sour because sanitation was not a priority of historical brewers. Ask me if I sanitized my carboy before dumping this last saison into it, or ask me if the Old Ale I just brewed is only Sacch fermented. (No on both, if you are actually wondering) On the other side of the coin, great beers can be made by adding Brett to a saison recipe. I completely agree with that. Just don’t call them saisons at the end of the day, because the Brett addition makes them something VERY different. Not only do I believe that your previous statement is in direct contradiction to this one, I don’t believe that you have any historical evidence to support you. And as a previous poster (and you yourself noted), to discount the influence of "wild" yeast and bacteria in old beer is probably not accurate. If you look at the heart of the historical saison, it was a rather low alcohol beer that was made from leftover grains laying around after harvest which was meant to be consumed very fresh. Decidedly NOT aged or allowed to sour over time, which is what many brewers are doing with their saisons. Why not just call them Brett beers or come up with another name to describe them more accurately? Something like Lacto can and will sour quickly. It almost has to (if we are talking L. del. spp B, which I think you indicated was the only strain important to brewing), due to its carbohydrate utilization and the fact that Sacch will go after those same sugars first if given the opportunity. Moreover, the high fermentation temps for saisons that others have referenced can also play a role in fairly rapidly adding a bit of tartness to a beer. With that in mind, I do believe that there is a distinct difference between a "saison" and a "sour". (Flavor and aroma hops, yeast character, etc.) and I will agree that many of the "saisons" on the RB top list are really pushing that distinction I guess I simply have certain expectations when someone tells me something is a saison. They are as follows: 1) Light colored 2) Hop-forward 3) 4% - 7% ABV 4) High attenuation 5) Effervescent 6) Peppery yeast character If the beer doesn’t deliver these characters, it is either a poor attempt at a saison or not a saison at all. This is why I am disappointed at beers like Hennepin. Says it’s a saison. Actually a witbier. But saisons are cool, so . . . I don’t disagree with the desirability of any of those characteristics you list. But you seem to be making an argument that those characteristics and any "wild" yeast (or bacteria) influence are mutually exclusive. I don’t believe that this has to be the case.
Message CLevar places 23 º 06:43 Wed 2/12/2014 Also of note: According to R. Pinon, in certain regions of Wallonia there were only two specific times for brewing saisons: in December, during Advent, and in March, since these were periods of rest for farmers. In other regions, they were brewed only in November And: Accoding to J. Cartuyvels and Ch. Stammer, the provision beers of Hainaut were brewed from December to March to be drunk from May to September And: Documents pertaining to the management of barrls at the old Biset-Cuvelier brewery show that some saisons were consumed after a year and a half to two years of storage...."Young, these beers naturally were not drinkable; however, the bitterness disappeared little by little (All above quotes from ’A History of Saison’, written by Yvan De Baets, found in "Farmhouse Ales") So perhaps the view of a beer consumed very young (before the influence of "wild" yeast and bacteria, if such thing is possible), is a bit myopic.

Message HornyDevil 06:55 Wed 2/12/2014 OK . . . I’ll take the bait. Originally posted by CLevar Ask me if I sanitized my carboy before dumping this last saison into it, or ask me if the Old Ale I just brewed is only Sacch fermented. (No on both, if you are actually wondering) I wasn’t, but thanks for sharing. Originally posted by HornyDevil Originally posted by CLevar On the other side of the coin, great beers can be made by adding Brett to a saison recipe. I completely agree with that. Just don’t call them saisons at the end of the day, because the Brett addition makes them something VERY different. Not only do I believe that your previous statement is in direct contradiction to this one, I don’t believe that you have any historical evidence to support you. I believe Ernest (RB user) has an article posted about the history of saisons somewhere around here. I’ll have to look around. Originally posted by CLevar Something like Lacto can and will sour quickly. I didn’t mean to imply that it wouldn’t, as in all of my sours over the past couple years, lacto has taken hold first when pitched simultaneously with other microbes and has certainly soured the beer within a short period of time. Originally posted by CLevar With that in mind, I do believe that there is a distinct difference between a "saison" and a "sour". (Flavor and aroma hops, yeast character, etc.) and I will agree that many of the "saisons" on the RB top list are really pushing that distinction We agree here. Originally posted by CLevar But you seem to be making an argument that those characteristics and any "wild" yeast (or bacteria) influence are mutually exclusive. I don’t believe that this has to be the case. You can’t have a beer that is hop and pepper forward when it is also funky and sour. There’s just too much going on there. Not saying said beer won’t be a great beer, just saying it won’t be as straight-forward and accessible as one would be without those added components.
Message HornyDevil 06:58 Wed 2/12/2014 Originally posted by CLevar Also of note: According to R. Pinon, in certain regions of Wallonia there were only two specific times for brewing saisons: in December, during Advent, and in March, since these were periods of rest for farmers. In other regions, they were brewed only in November And: Accoding to J. Cartuyvels and Ch. Stammer, the provision beers of Hainaut were brewed from December to March to be drunk from May to September And: Documents pertaining to the management of barrls at the old Biset-Cuvelier brewery show that some saisons were consumed after a year and a half to two years of storage...."Young, these beers naturally were not drinkable; however, the bitterness disappeared little by little (All above quotes from ’A History of Saison’, written by Yvan De Baets, found in "Farmhouse Ales") So perhaps the view of a beer consumed very young (before the influence of "wild" yeast and bacteria, if such thing is possible), is a bit myopic. There are exceptions to every rule and outliers in every category.
Message HornyDevil 07:01 Wed 2/12/2014 Originally posted by HornyDevil Originally posted by CLevar Originally posted by HornyDevil On the other side of the coin, great beers can be made by adding Brett to a saison recipe. I completely agree with that. Just don’t call them saisons at the end of the day, because the Brett addition makes them something VERY different. Not only do I believe that your previous statement is in direct contradiction to this one, I don’t believe that you have any historical evidence to support you. I believe Ernest (RB user) has an article posted about the history of saisons somewhere around here. I’ll have to look around. http://www.ratebeer.com/Beer-News/Article-659.htm
Message CLevar places 23 º 07:18 Wed 2/12/2014 Originally posted by HornyDevil Originally posted by HornyDevil Originally posted by CLevar Originally posted by HornyDevil On the other side of the coin, great beers can be made by adding Brett to a saison recipe. I completely agree with that. Just don’t call them saisons at the end of the day, because the Brett addition makes them something VERY different. Not only do I believe that your previous statement is in direct contradiction to this one, I don’t believe that you have any historical evidence to support you. I believe Ernest (RB user) has an article posted about the history of saisons somewhere around here. I’ll have to look around. http://www.ratebeer.com/Beer-News/Article-659.htm Really nice writeup, and I think its points reinforce an understanding of an historical "saison" which includes the influence of "wild" yeast and bacteria. I want to make it clear that I absolutely, positively don’t believe that saisons MUST have that influence; But I think the evidence points to an acceptance and even welcoming of that influence. And I for one will continue to add "wild" yeast and bacteria to my interpretations of the style, preferably through dregs harvested through chugging of a bottle or three whilst brewing.

Message CLevar places 23 º 16:07 Wed 2/12/2014 We have all been doing it wrong, according to the RB style guidlines: Fruity esters dominate the aroma. Clarity is good with a large foamy head on top. The addition of several spices and herbs create a complex fruity or citrusy flavor. Light to medium bodied with very high carbonation. Alcohol level is medium to high.
Message bitbucket beers 2166 º places 63 º 19:13 Wed 2/12/2014 Originally posted by HornyDevil Putting Brett in your saison (and lacto and pedio for that matter) is simply the "cool" thing to do these days and has little to do with the character of the historical beer. We probably need to agree to disagree here. Originally posted by HornyDevil If everyone were SO worried about the historical accuracy of their beers, the VAST majority of Old World styles would be funky and sour because sanitization was not a priority of historical brewers. Oh, wait... you disagree with yourself as well.
Message CLevar places 23 º 19:15 Wed 2/12/2014 Originally posted by bitbucket Originally posted by HornyDevil Putting Brett in your saison (and lacto and pedio for that matter) is simply the "cool" thing to do these days and has little to do with the character of the historical beer. We probably need to agree to disagree here. Originally posted by HornyDevil If everyone were SO worried about the historical accuracy of their beers, the VAST majority of Old World styles would be funky and sour because sanitization was not a priority of historical brewers. Oh, wait... you disagree with yourself as well. That point has been made previously.

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