The "American Lambic" Predicament

Reads 9914 • Replies 76 • Started Monday, May 21, 2012 1:43:50 PM CT

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Message FL_homer beers 1 º places 1 º 10:13 Thu 5/24/2012 Originally posted by GT2 With my forum filter, this thread is only 2 pages. Discuss. I could take a few wild guesses on who you are filtering Anyway, I like the Florida Weisse thread better.
Message chriso P beers 7540 º places 736 º 10:20 Thu 5/24/2012 Originally posted by Jeppe Its not like you would call it Champagne just because its sparkling wine. No, but I would call Champagne just another sparkling wine.
Message SamGamgee P beers 2452 º places 182 º 12:36 Thu 5/24/2012 I guess I don’t get the whole "overly sour" flavor that is being associated with acetic acid in american sour beers. Probably the most sour American beer I’ve had is Beatification, at least among beers that were good. Some have been more harsh, but I associate that more with ethyl acetate, which I think is from the oxidative activity of brett, which will also produce acetic acid. I find most American sour beers to actually be milder and less acidic overall than your typical gueuze. And I would say that recent releases from Cascade are definitely the cleanest sour beers out there--much cleaner than 3F gueuze, which I always find to have a somewhat harsh barnyard aroma, even if the acidity isn’t too high.

Message hophead84 08:12 Fri 5/25/2012 Seems to be a lot of confusion between lactic, citric, and acetic acid in this thread. I saw someone even refer to acidic acid.
Message Danko 08:36 Fri 5/25/2012 Originally posted by ryan Originally posted by FlacoAlto Originally posted by KungFuMike Originally posted by b3shine Originally posted by levifunk Sorry Joe, but I don’t think you follow this. Brett has very little to do with souring aspects of lambics. I completely disagree with you, Levi. Brett has a great deal to do with the souring aspects of lambics. No, no it doesn’t. +1 Brett has a lot to do with the flavor and fermentation profile of Lambic, but compared to Lactobacillus and pediococcus, produces very little acidity. Although lacto is a much better acid producer than brett, I’d be willing to bet that brett actually plays a larger role in acidifying a lambic than lacto. Traditional lambic producers make sure there is virtually no lactobacillus in their beer by using copious quantities of hops (the 6% ABV also helps). Most common strains of lacto are gram positive and unable to reproduce in this environment. The brett, though producing much less acid per capita, is present in huge numbers. Brettanomyces does not make beer sour, other organisms do. Lactobacillus and pediococus as mentioned earlier are two big culprits for lowering the pH, as are some other acetobacteria. The hops used in traditional lambic have been stored sometimes up to several years, it’s not going to kill lactobacillus or such to the extent mentioned. If you’re interested in how active these organisms are, at what stage during fermentation and for how long etc then check out this diagram: http://www.danko.se/bier/16.bakteriediagram.gif As you can see, the pH doesn’t start going up until after more than a year and a half for instance. Cheers, Danko Ps. Don’t get spooked by the enterobacteria, it’s not a problem! hehe
Message hophead84 09:10 Fri 5/25/2012 Originally posted by Danko Originally posted by ryan Originally posted by FlacoAlto Originally posted by KungFuMike Originally posted by b3shine Originally posted by levifunk Sorry Joe, but I don’t think you follow this. Brett has very little to do with souring aspects of lambics. I completely disagree with you, Levi. Brett has a great deal to do with the souring aspects of lambics. No, no it doesn’t. +1 Brett has a lot to do with the flavor and fermentation profile of Lambic, but compared to Lactobacillus and pediococcus, produces very little acidity. Although lacto is a much better acid producer than brett, I’d be willing to bet that brett actually plays a larger role in acidifying a lambic than lacto. Traditional lambic producers make sure there is virtually no lactobacillus in their beer by using copious quantities of hops (the 6% ABV also helps). Most common strains of lacto are gram positive and unable to reproduce in this environment. The brett, though producing much less acid per capita, is present in huge numbers. Brettanomyces does not make beer sour, other organisms do. Lactobacillus and pediococus as mentioned earlier are two big culprits for lowering the pH, as are some other acetobacteria. The hops used in traditional lambic have been stored sometimes up to several years, it’s not going to kill lactobacillus or such to the extent mentioned. If you’re interested in how active these organisms are, at what stage during fermentation and for how long etc then check out this diagram: http://www.danko.se/bier/16.bakteriediagram.gif As you can see, the pH doesn’t start going up until after more than a year and a half for instance. Cheers, Danko Ps. Don’t get spooked by the enterobacteria, it’s not a problem! hehe Why do you say that? I’ve had lambic with awful enterobacter issues.
Message Danko 09:18 Fri 5/25/2012 Hi Shane, As with a lot of other beers besides lambic becoming infected with among other things enterobacteria, it’s not the norm. And the inclusion of enterobacteria as displayed in the chart does not imply an infection. Hence it’s usually not a problem, even though as you point out there are indeed sometimes ghastly tasting lambic (and other beers) out there. :)

Message levifunk beers 12 º 09:18 Fri 5/25/2012 Originally posted by hophead84 Originally posted by Danko Ps. Don’t get spooked by the enterobacteria, it’s not a problem! hehe Why do you say that? I’ve had lambic with awful enterobacter issues. enterobacteria is common in the first couple weeks, but get beat out by the good yeast and bacteria. Actually, I believe I read that brett will later eat the enterobacteria (or whatever it creates?) and create additional flavors adding to the depth and complexity of a lambic. If you’ve had lambic with enterobacter issues, it would almost certianly be due to the base wort was not an environment that encouraged the sachro, lacto, brett, and pedio to take off to out compete the enterobacter early enough. Once sachro and lacto take off, it kills the enterobacter.
Message hophead84 09:23 Fri 5/25/2012 Originally posted by Danko Hi Shane, As with a lot of other beers besides lambic becoming infected with among other things enterobacteria, it’s not the norm. And the inclusion of enterobacteria as displayed in the chart does not imply an infection. Hence it’s usually not a problem, even though as you point out there are indeed sometimes ghastly tasting lambic (and other beers) out there. :) Thanks for the the info (and levi). That’s an informative graph.
Message Danko 09:26 Fri 5/25/2012 Originally posted by levifunk Originally posted by hophead84 Originally posted by Danko Ps. Don’t get spooked by the enterobacteria, it’s not a problem! hehe Why do you say that? I’ve had lambic with awful enterobacter issues. enterobacteria is common in the first couple weeks, but get beat out by the good yeast and bacteria. Actually, I believe I read that brett will later eat the enterobacteria (or whatever it creates?) and create additional flavors adding to the depth and complexity of a lambic. If you’ve had lambic with enterobacter issues, it would almost certianly be due to the base wort was not an environment that encouraged the sachro, lacto, brett, and pedio to take off to out compete the enterobacter early enough. Once sachro and lacto take off, it kills the enterobacter. Spot on comments. Enterobacteria doesn’t cope with lowered pH, it’s very sensitive to it and dies really fast in the process. Lactobacillus usually takes care of this quickly. E-bacteria outputs a pH of 5 and vort is usually a smidge above that initially. Lambic and oud bruin can easily go down to 3.5 or even below 3 in pH.