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Wild/natural fermentation


read 2298 times • 35 replies • posted 10/2/2012 4:36:12 AM

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HornyDevil
Originally posted by joeneugs
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by joeneugs
Unrelated question to the OP... if I was to ferment 5 gallons of wort with only a bottle dreg starter and/or spontaneous yeast, would I aerate the wort before pitching or no?


Sure.


The high dissolved O2 wouldnít inhibit pedio and favor acetobacter? Iím very sensitive to acetic acid.


Initially the environment will favor primarily lactobacillus and then the Brett species. They will produce anaerobic conditions rather quickly, so any acetic acid production will be rather minimal. As the mixed fermentation increases in alcohol, lacto will become dormant because if its poor alcohol tolerance, the Brett will continue to thrive, and pediococcus will kick in.

Remember that lactobacillus is also very sensitive to alpha and beta acids. For this reason, I have ceased using hops in my sour projects. I have noticed a marked improvement in the quality of those beers since I began doing so.
10/2/2012 5:47:54 PM

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joeneugs 3478:155
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by joeneugs
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by joeneugs
Unrelated question to the OP... if I was to ferment 5 gallons of wort with only a bottle dreg starter and/or spontaneous yeast, would I aerate the wort before pitching or no?


Sure.


The high dissolved O2 wouldnít inhibit pedio and favor acetobacter? Iím very sensitive to acetic acid.


Initially the environment will favor primarily lactobacillus and then the Brett species. They will produce anaerobic conditions rather quickly, so any acetic acid production will be rather minimal. As the mixed fermentation increases in alcohol, lacto will become dormant because if its poor alcohol tolerance, the Brett will continue to thrive, and pediococcus will kick in.

Remember that lactobacillus is also very sensitive to alpha and beta acids. For this reason, I have ceased using hops in my sour projects. I have noticed a marked improvement in the quality of those beers since I began doing so.


This makes sense. Thanks.
10/2/2012 6:43:56 PM

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HornyDevil
Originally posted by joeneugs
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by joeneugs
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by joeneugs
Unrelated question to the OP... if I was to ferment 5 gallons of wort with only a bottle dreg starter and/or spontaneous yeast, would I aerate the wort before pitching or no?


Sure.


The high dissolved O2 wouldnít inhibit pedio and favor acetobacter? Iím very sensitive to acetic acid.


Initially the environment will favor primarily lactobacillus and then the Brett species. They will produce anaerobic conditions rather quickly, so any acetic acid production will be rather minimal. As the mixed fermentation increases in alcohol, lacto will become dormant because if its poor alcohol tolerance, the Brett will continue to thrive, and pediococcus will kick in.

Remember that lactobacillus is also very sensitive to alpha and beta acids. For this reason, I have ceased using hops in my sour projects. I have noticed a marked improvement in the quality of those beers since I began doing so.


This makes sense. Thanks.


BTW, I know that there are at least a couple good charts/graphs out there showing microbial activity in a mixed microbe fermentation, but I canít seem to find them. Wyeast has a pretty good explanation of spontaneous fermentations, but nothing about what happens when you pitch colonies of yeast and bacteria at the same time. I would assume that activity would be similar, but canít be sure.
10/3/2012 4:15:33 AM

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OldSock
Originally posted by seymour

Originally posted by bierkitty


...he swears you need orchards nearby and lots of spider webs in the vicinity...



Originally posted by TheBookie


Cobwebs always help...



I donít get it. Why? What do nearby spider webs have to do with which microbes are on the wind?


Originally posted by bierkitty


...I was warned not to try any tasting untill the pH is high enough to kill off the nasties like Salmonella and E. coli...



Which is what, do you know?





Flies spread acetobacter, spiders kill flies. To my knowledge that is their only benefit.



You actually want a lower pH for safety, 4.4-4.5 is the usual suggested range by people in the know. Some breweries, like Hill Farmstead, use acid to lower the pH of their spontaneously fermented wort to keep it nasty-free.



Some lambic brewers also swear by allowing the yeast/krausen that overflows from the barrel dry and turn to dust for more airborn yeast.
10/3/2012 6:25:32 AM

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HornyDevil
Originally posted by OldSock
Some lambic brewers also swear by allowing the yeast/krausen that overflows from the barrel dry and turn to dust for more airborn yeast.


Thatís a fun/weird/gross fact.
10/3/2012 7:08:42 AM

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seymour 1473:45
Originally posted by OldSock
Flies spread acetobacter, spiders kill flies. To my knowledge that is their only benefit.



You actually want a lower pH for safety, 4.4-4.5 is the usual suggested range by people in the know. Some breweries, like Hill Farmstead, use acid to lower the pH of their spontaneously fermented wort to keep it nasty-free.



Some lambic brewers also swear by allowing the yeast/krausen that overflows from the barrel dry and turn to dust for more airborn yeast.

Great stuff, makes sense. Thanks again.
10/3/2012 7:33:31 AM

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Unclerudy 12:3
Remember though that some breweries that bottle condition can use normal yeast to carbonate with because the specialty stuff could be dead. I have heard of flash pasteurization of the beer for stability and then adding 1054 to get the actual CO2 once in the bottle. So it depends. I think Saison Dupont does exactly that, off of the top of my head.
10/3/2012 8:26:57 AM

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OldSock
Originally posted by Unclerudy
Remember though that some breweries that bottle condition can use normal yeast to carbonate with because the specialty stuff could be dead. I have heard of flash pasteurization of the beer for stability and then adding 1054 to get the actual CO2 once in the bottle. So it depends. I think Saison Dupont does exactly that, off of the top of my head.


I donít believe Dupont does, as far as Iím aware.

In terms of American sour beers the big ones that pasteurize are New Belgium, New Glarus, and Deschutes. There are some New Belgium beers with Brett, and the New Glarus R&D series is unpateurized though.

Plenty of other breweries add wine strains to unpasteurized beer, like Russian River, which can problems of its own if it is a killer strain (as RRís Rockpile is). Growing it will kill any ale yeast you pitch.
10/3/2012 8:43:56 AM

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HornyDevil
Originally posted by OldSock
Plenty of other breweries add wine strains to unpasteurized beer, like Russian River, which can problems of its own if it is a killer strain (as RRís Rockpile is). Growing it will kill any ale yeast you pitch.


Will it kill Brett and bacteria as well?
10/3/2012 9:25:29 AM

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Unclerudy 12:3
My mistake. I have just heard that what you get from a bottle might not be the yeast you would want to ferment with. Donít know why I said Dupont did that. Must have mistaken it for someone else.
10/3/2012 9:30:55 AM

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