CAMRA chairman angry at BA magazine article

Reads 24575 • Replies 192 • Started Sunday, May 29, 2011 3:15:27 AM CT

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harrisoni
beers 24677 º places 68 º 11:07 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by tdtm82

slaying keg as a choice format when it is actually appropriate for some styles.

people whom do not understand this because they believe everything CAMRA tell them.

It because of this that I quit CAMRA.

They demonise bloggers whom also write hugely on cask ale. I have had a beer with a lot of bloggers yet have not had one pint with a member of the Camra hirearcy.



Some things I don’t understand here Thomas.

1. What styles are appropriate for keg? Double IPAs, like you mentioned on Scoopgen? OK, tell that to Moor when their JJJ was star of the show in cask a couple of years ago at White Cliffs BF, tell that to Old Dairy whose Hop Top is fantastic on cask. Tell that to Eddie Gadd whose West Coast DIPA was brilliant on cask at Planet Thanet this year.

2. How unbelievably patronising to say some people believe everything that Camra tell them. Apart from insulting people’s intelligence, what exactly are you basing this opinion on?

3. Fine, you did not renew your subscription to Camra. We know. Wow, I’m sure that the National Exec are trembling. Continue to throw stones from the outside instead of trying to change things from the inside. Did you attend the Camra AGM? When was the last time you attended a local branch meeting???? What have you done to try to "enlighten" them?

4. Last year, the Camra quarterly publication "Beer" had beer and the internet on their front cover and the main/first piece was about beer bloggers written by Mark Dredge. Is this demonising bloggers? I don’t think so.

5. Have you tried to have a pint with any of the Camra Nat Exce? Emailed them, written to them, offered to meet them for a drink?

Sorry Thomas, this may seem a personal attack on you, it isn’t, I just think that sometimes there are easy words written on the internet that aren’t backed up with any reality. If you are going to stick your head above the parapet, sometimes, you have to be prepared that you are going to get shot at. I know not everyone will agree with me and that’s fine, I’m prepared for that, because I know that this is my opinion. But I am prepared to back it up where necessary. I still don’t see where this keg revolution that is supposed to be happening is happening and I don’t see Camra protesting outisde of the Cask Pub & Kitchen or the Euston Tap that they dare to have keg beers on sale.

Everyone needs to take a few deep breaths and as my old HR assistant used to say in a broad Preston accent, "get a grip."

 
harrisoni
beers 24677 º places 68 º 11:12 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by tdtm82
I don’t have a problem with cask conditioning. I have a problem with people denying both sides of conditioning. I think it should be open to a brewers’ discretion how they condition a beer. Cask or keg. It deosn’t matter. What does matter is that that beer is conditioned and served by how that brewer wants it. I’m making perfect sense, I’ve been misquoted far too much. The point is simple. Maybe it’s others whom don’t get that basic point.


Sorry, again, I just don’t understand Thomas. How do you condition a beer in a keg???????????? You can’t. It’s sealed and no oxygen can get in to perform a secondary fermentation in the keg. You can add CO2 in the dispense of the beer to give it more bubbles, but you can’t condition a beer in a keg in the same way you would on cask.

Perhaps someone with more brewing knowledge than me can clarify?

 
JoeMcPhee
beers 11811 º places 543 º 11:18 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by harrisoni
Originally posted by tdtm82
I don’t have a problem with cask conditioning. I have a problem with people denying both sides of conditioning. I think it should be open to a brewers’ discretion how they condition a beer. Cask or keg. It deosn’t matter. What does matter is that that beer is conditioned and served by how that brewer wants it. I’m making perfect sense, I’ve been misquoted far too much. The point is simple. Maybe it’s others whom don’t get that basic point.


Sorry, again, I just don’t understand Thomas. How do you condition a beer in a keg???????????? You can’t. It’s sealed and no oxygen can get in to perform a secondary fermentation in the keg. You can add CO2 in the dispense of the beer to give it more bubbles, but you can’t condition a beer in a keg in the same way you would on cask.

Perhaps someone with more brewing knowledge than me can clarify?

Depends on how you define "conditioning". I suspect that for you, it implies a secondary fermentation, but that’s not how it’s typically used in the brewing industry. Conditioning simply means getting into peak form.

Lagering is a type of conditioning
Cold-aging is type of conditioning
Storing a bottled beer for a particular length of time is a type of conditioning

As to how keg beer changes - it certainly does - although it’s typically chemical reactions in the keg as opposed to biological types of fermentation reactions

 
kmweaver
beers 3208 º places 116 º 11:28 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by SilkTork
Originally posted by kmweaver
Originally posted by stefanje
As for definitions, I though "craft brewery" is any independent brewery that produces less than 6 million barrels of beer a year, and craft beer/ale is their product. A term that is neutral and infers neither good nor bad brew (just like real ale). Can someone please enlighten me as to the controversy here?


This is the American definition. The discourse and history of things in the UK make it a completely different conversation.


No, it’s the same. That’s the nuts of the debate. The "craft beer" movement embraces filtering as most of the brewers within the Brewing Association’s definition filter their beer as standard. CAMRA has positioned itself against filtering, preferring to campaign for fresh beer. The UK doesn’t have a craft beer movement, but some brewers, such as BrewDog, who copy American brewers, and who also filter as standard, have been using the term, and some UK consumers have been excited by what American brewers have been doing, so there is a growing call for CAMRA to accept filtered beer under the name of "craft beer". Clearly this is not acceptable to a consumer organisation which was set up to promote fresh, unfiltered beer.

Some of the people who support the idea of CAMRA embracing "craft beer" do not quite understand the implications.


While I appreciate the attempt to add some nuance to my original post (which it probably could have used), all you did was support my two very basic points: (1) The original definition focused on the allowed production size of 6 million annual barrels, which really has no basis in anything but an American definition of craft beer; and (2) your comments that focus on filtering as the main point of contention shows that this is a completely different conversation than it is here.

I’m not touching the rest of this conversation with a ten-foot pole.

 
tdtm82
beers 1704 º places 138 º 11:28 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
Originally posted by harrisoni
Originally posted by tdtm82
I don’t have a problem with cask conditioning. I have a problem with people denying both sides of conditioning. I think it should be open to a brewers’ discretion how they condition a beer. Cask or keg. It deosn’t matter. What does matter is that that beer is conditioned and served by how that brewer wants it. I’m making perfect sense, I’ve been misquoted far too much. The point is simple. Maybe it’s others whom don’t get that basic point.


Sorry, again, I just don’t understand Thomas. How do you condition a beer in a keg???????????? You can’t. It’s sealed and no oxygen can get in to perform a secondary fermentation in the keg. You can add CO2 in the dispense of the beer to give it more bubbles, but you can’t condition a beer in a keg in the same way you would on cask.

Perhaps someone with more brewing knowledge than me can clarify?

Depends on how you define "conditioning". I suspect that for you, it implies a secondary fermentation, but that’s not how it’s typically used in the brewing industry. Conditioning simply means getting into peak form.

Lagering is a type of conditioning
Cold-aging is type of conditioning
Storing a bottled beer for a particular length of time is a type of conditioning

As to how keg beer changes - it certainly does - although it’s typically chemical reactions in the keg as opposed to biological types of fermentation reactions


yes yes yes this is what I’m talking about. The conditioning is different accross all types of ranges. The choice of conditioning. Be denying keg your are stiflying a market. This is what Camra are doing and this is what I disagree with. I am a cask man as anyone but I like my keg beer too. I don’t know how Ian you fail to get this.

 
haddonsman
beers 1234 º places 56 º 11:31 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by harrisoni
Originally posted by tdtm82
I don’t have a problem with cask conditioning. I have a problem with people denying both sides of conditioning. I think it should be open to a brewers’ discretion how they condition a beer. Cask or keg. It deosn’t matter. What does matter is that that beer is conditioned and served by how that brewer wants it. I’m making perfect sense, I’ve been misquoted far too much. The point is simple. Maybe it’s others whom don’t get that basic point.


Sorry, again, I just don’t understand Thomas. How do you condition a beer in a keg???????????? You can’t. It’s sealed and no oxygen can get in to perform a secondary fermentation in the keg. You can add CO2 in the dispense of the beer to give it more bubbles, but you can’t condition a beer in a keg in the same way you would on cask.

Perhaps someone with more brewing knowledge than me can clarify?


Interesting. With unfiltered keg I’ve heard some of this referred to as ’real keg’ on the basis of secondary fermentation. I’d like to get the Lovibonds / Moor angle on this.

 
cgarvieuk
beers 35010 º places 453 º 11:34 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by tdtm82
Originally posted by JoeMcPhee
Originally posted by harrisoni
Originally posted by tdtm82
I don’t have a problem with cask conditioning. I have a problem with people denying both sides of conditioning. I think it should be open to a brewers’ discretion how they condition a beer. Cask or keg. It deosn’t matter. What does matter is that that beer is conditioned and served by how that brewer wants it. I’m making perfect sense, I’ve been misquoted far too much. The point is simple. Maybe it’s others whom don’t get that basic point.


Sorry, again, I just don’t understand Thomas. How do you condition a beer in a keg???????????? You can’t. It’s sealed and no oxygen can get in to perform a secondary fermentation in the keg. You can add CO2 in the dispense of the beer to give it more bubbles, but you can’t condition a beer in a keg in the same way you would on cask.

Perhaps someone with more brewing knowledge than me can clarify?

Depends on how you define "conditioning". I suspect that for you, it implies a secondary fermentation, but that’s not how it’s typically used in the brewing industry. Conditioning simply means getting into peak form.

Lagering is a type of conditioning
Cold-aging is type of conditioning
Storing a bottled beer for a particular length of time is a type of conditioning

As to how keg beer changes - it certainly does - although it’s typically chemical reactions in the keg as opposed to biological types of fermentation reactions


yes yes yes this is what I’m talking about. The conditioning is different accross all types of ranges. The choice of conditioning. Be denying keg your are stiflying a market. This is what Camra are doing and this is what I disagree with. I am a cask man as anyone but I like my keg beer too. I don’t know how Ian you fail to get this.


But CAMRA are not stiflying Keg beer. There promoting CASK beer. I dont know of any CAMRA member or policy that advocates boycotting brewers who produce Keg Beer. They might not drink it, they might think cask is better, but there not trying to stop keg beer.

Why you think CAMRA has to accept or promote Keg beer is beyond me. That not there purpose. It doesnt matter how good the Keg beer may be. Its not Real Ale.

 
otakuden
beers 1783 º 12:15 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by SilkTork
Originally posted by otakuden
craft beer is real ale and real ale is craft beer. they both stand for the same thing so it’s really a silly debate, imo. whether it’s filtered or unfiltered, what matters is the beer itself and the men and women who brew it, the community, and the men and women who love to drink these artisanal beers, both real ale and craft included.

i can drink to that


No they don’t stand for the same thing. There is a deep rooted misunderstanding regarding what CAMRA are about and what "craft beer" signifies.

They have similarities, but are very different.

CAMRA positions itself as a supporter of fresh, unfiltered beer.

Craft beer positions itself as a supporter of small brewers.

CAMRA supports fresh beer regardless of who makes it.

Craft beer supports filtered beer as long as it is made by a small brewer.

People in favour of CAMRA supporting "craft beer" are using the argument that craft brewers sometimes make tastier beer than producers of fresh beer, partly because fresh beer goes stale quicker than stabilised beer, and partly because a brewer can make good tasting or bad tasting beer regardless of if it is filtered afterwards.

CAMRA’s position is rather like that of Fair Trade. It doesn’t matter what the coffee tastes like, if the coffee producer is not paying the coffee plantation a fair amount for the beans, then it isn’t Fair Trade.

CAMRA supports fresh beer. Craft brewers don’t always sell fresh beer.

If a craft brewer ensures that its beer is always served fresh and without forced carbonation, then it would come under CAMRA’s umbrella.



i think that my thoughts/heart behind the matter was a bit misunderstood, partly thanks to the vagueness of my input. does CAMRA have specific guidelines/rules/restrictions/whatnot? yes. does craft beer as we try to understand it have specific guidelines/rules/restrictions/whatnot? yes.

are they the same? no. but maybe they are?

as a definition, craft is simply: "an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill" or "the members of a trade or trade association".

wouldn’t this make CAMRA and ’real ale’ a craft?

a storied and historic and specific craft yes but a craft nonetheless. i am proud of what CAMRA has accomplished but i also feel that the rigidity which helped them save a specific kind of craft beer known as real ale near and dear to the heart of England, it is now also quite possibly restrictive and damaging.

and so why can craft beer not be real ale and real ale not be craft beer? would calling it craft ale make a difference? when and where and how should the semantics of pettiness end?

names are important but not all powerful. both craft beer in its broadest definition so as to not restrict creativity of the artisans and craftsmen and craftswomen who brew craft beer, so too for real ale and the creativity of the artisans and craftsmen and craftswomen who brew it for our, the public’s drinking pleasure.

so yes, CAMRA protects a specific type of craft beer known in England as real ale. is there room for ingenuity and creativity within real ale? absolutely. but will CAMRA allow for it, or is CAMRA caught up in itself and unable to see the craft for the ale and the ale for the craft.

just my 2 cents

 
Fin
beers 15944 º places 1594 º 12:37 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by cgarvieuk
Originally posted by harrisoni
standing outside the tent and pissing in (borrowing a line from Fin).


yeah im thinking i might not tell Fin where my test is at Cropredy this year :-)


I must repeat that the line was orginally Ian’s from yet another CAMRA thread from a long while ago. I loved the line it was very apt.

Btw Craig I don’t think your tent is safe from me and my wayward sprinkling ’tallywhacker’.

 
EdKing
beers 3487 º places 280 º 12:50 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by harrisoni
There has been so much rubbish written in the last few months about craft/keg/good beer in the UK in the past few months. Anyone who thinks the Campaign for Real Ale will support keg beer just does not have the ability to read and understand words written in English. Does this make Camra wrong? No of cousre it does not. It means its the campaign for real ale. Blimey.

Is there a mass of keg craft beer floating around the UK? No there isnt. 99% of what is available is still cask and long may that remain. I have not had a keg beer that has the mouthfeel of a cask beer. I may be completely different to everyone else. I dont care.

And as for brown bitters. I have had two today alone that are excellent. Both locally brewed delivered direct to the pub and served brilliantly.

If there is all this keg around how come I am not seeing it? Yes in some bars in London but nit anywhere else.

Yes there are great beer styles around the world and I love pils and helles almost more than cask beer. But to keep saying cask beer is shit and we should ditch it all for a non existant keg revolution is completely daft.

Yes I am a dinosaur yes I am one of the few supporters of Camra on this site. Mainly because I get involved in Camra locally instead of throwing stones from the outside. Give me a pint of Old Dairy Spring Hop over any double imperial barrel aged to death keg bollocks from anywhere else. More flavour does not always mean better flavour. Subtlety and nuance seem to be words some people on this site clearly dont have in their dictionaries


I don’t think anyone or many are saying CAMRA should not support cask beer. You rightly say there are some great cask beers and long may that continue. I think we are just saying that there either needs to be space made within CAMRA to also support craft beer, maybe as an exclusion outside of their principle aim, or someone needs to start up something that covers what CAMRA ain’t doing. I’m a member and very happy with a lot of what they do, but hate the mentality of a lot of members towards craft beers at events I have been to. Basically borne out of ignorance from people who refuse to drink anything other than cask but don’t spare an opinion of stuff they’ve never drunk.

Hate to pick holes but a scan of your top ratings reveals mainly Belgian ales and craft brews that do not fit the CAMRA principle.

I