CAMRA chairman angry at BA magazine article

Reads 24586 • Replies 192 • Started Sunday, May 29, 2011 3:15:27 AM CT

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kmweaver
beers 3208 º places 116 º 13:01 Mon 5/30/2011

Sigh. I’m always hesitant to rip into your posts because they seem well-intended, but this is completely missing the point and shows an unwillingness to handle the actual substance of the debate.

Originally posted by otakuden
i think that my thoughts/heart behind the matter was a bit misunderstood, partly thanks to the vagueness of my input. does CAMRA have specific guidelines/rules/restrictions/whatnot? yes. does craft beer as we try to understand it have specific guidelines/rules/restrictions/whatnot? yes.

are they the same? no. but maybe they are?


No, they’re not the same.

Originally posted by otakuden
as a definition, craft is simply: "an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill" or "the members of a trade or trade association".

wouldn’t this make CAMRA and ’real ale’ a craft?


Real ale has a clear definition in the UK. Craft beer has a clear definition in the U.S. There are organizations that serve to define and clarify these definitions. So citing a dictionary definition of "craft" to suggest that one is all and all is one and encourage us to all sing around the campfire is completely besides the point.

It also fails to appreciate another core point, which is that the reason we talk about definitions in the first place is because people find value in them. This is not just a question of the slipperiness of words, but about 40 years of CAMRA-centric inertia, the politics of its role in an evolving beer culture, and the arrogant personalities at the helm of such things. I’d advise against walking into a British pub of CAMRA stalwarts and trying to explain to them that they needn’t worry, beer is all the same thing as long as it’s craft. (Be sure to put on your best Americanized accent, for added affect.)

Originally posted by otakuden
a storied and historic and specific craft yes but a craft nonetheless. i am proud of what CAMRA has accomplished but i also feel that the rigidity which helped them save a specific kind of craft beer known as real ale near and dear to the heart of England, it is now also quite possibly restrictive and damaging.

and so why can craft beer not be real ale and real ale not be craft beer? would calling it craft ale make a difference?


Of course it would make a difference. That’s why tens of thousands of people are arguing about it right now.

Originally posted by otakuden
when and where and how should the semantics of pettiness end?

names are important but not all powerful. both craft beer in its broadest definition so as to not restrict creativity of the artisans and craftsmen and craftswomen who brew craft beer, so too for real ale and the creativity of the artisans and craftsmen and craftswomen who brew it for our, the public’s drinking pleasure.


Way too flowery. You need to realize that beer is an industry, that it involves money and also a sense of value in how the language around it is codified, and that how words are defined and who defines them does actually have real-world consequences (even if it is ultimately a rather silly, artificial, and heavily politicized discussion).

Originally posted by otakuden
so yes, CAMRA protects a specific type of craft beer known in England as real ale. is there room for ingenuity and creativity within real ale? absolutely. but will CAMRA allow for it, or is CAMRA caught up in itself and unable to see the craft for the ale and the ale for the craft.


That’s basically the question here.

 
harrisoni
beers 24676 º places 68 º 13:16 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by EdKing

Hate to pick holes but a scan of your top ratings reveals mainly Belgian ales and craft brews that do not fit the CAMRA principle.

I


Arh, yes, I am a mass of contradictions........

However.

My top rated Belgian beers are mainly bottled conditioned versions, so sit happily in the Camra wing, Pannepot, Westy 8, Rochefort 8, all bottle conditioned. The Struise Black Albert Batch 0 was indeed on keykeg. I seem to remember seeing somewhere that Camra have accepted that keykegs are indeed real ale as they would see them, as they don’t need to have gas (nitro or CO2) in contact with the beer for the dispense. I am a full supporter of someone like Struise who do this beer dispense brilliantly.

But yes, I do have some traditional keg beers high in my ratings because I like them. I like a lot of beers Camra wouldn’t accept because of the dispense method. No one’s perfect.

 
kmweaver
beers 3208 º places 116 º 13:24 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by kmweaver
Originally posted by otakuden
so yes, CAMRA protects a specific type of craft beer known in England as real ale. is there room for ingenuity and creativity within real ale? absolutely. but will CAMRA allow for it, or is CAMRA caught up in itself and unable to see the craft for the ale and the ale for the craft.


That’s basically the question here.


Actually (before SilkTork or someone else jumps on the opportunity to correct me), it’s still even a bit more complicated than this.

I’m going to go barbecue and drink some beer.

 
tdtm82
beers 1704 º places 138 º 13:29 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by harrisoni
Originally posted by EdKing

Hate to pick holes but a scan of your top ratings reveals mainly Belgian ales and craft brews that do not fit the CAMRA principle.

I


Arh, yes, I am a mass of contradictions........

However.

My top rated Belgian beers are mainly bottled conditioned versions, so sit happily in the Camra wing, Pannepot, Westy 8, Rochefort 8, all bottle conditioned. The Struise Black Albert Batch 0 was indeed on keykeg. I seem to remember seeing somewhere that Camra have accepted that keykegs are indeed real ale as they would see them, as they don’t need to have gas (nitro or CO2) in contact with the beer for the dispense. I am a full supporter of someone like Struise who do this beer dispense brilliantly.

But yes, I do have some traditional keg beers high in my ratings because I like them. I like a lot of beers Camra wouldn’t accept because of the dispense method. No one’s perfect.


This is what I’ve been trying to explain.

 
haddonsman
beers 1234 º places 56 º 13:49 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by tdtm82

This is what I’ve been trying to explain.


Really?

If anyone else uses the term ’craft beer’ in a UK context to support their argument I will come round to your home and shit on your carpet. There is no such thing as craft beer in the UK. You can call it whatever you want. It makes feck-all difference because your definition of craft beer is invariably different to everyone else’s.

Everyone, please: walk away from the thread, grow a pair, get a beer and loosen up.

 
bobinlondon
beers 1298 º places 14 º 13:53 Mon 5/30/2011

To anyone viewing this thread from outside the UK, I would like to point out something in CAMRA’s defence. Still by far the best selling ale brewed over here is a keg/canned bitter that goes by the name of John Smith’s Extra Smooth. I would list nitrogen, cardboard and a metallic twang way ahead of malt or hops when struggling to describe this brown sugary industrial liquid’s ’flavour’ (for want of a more suitable word). After 40 years of stigmatising dreadful keg products that have themselves been the best possible advertisement for how much better cask and bottle conditioning can be, it’s ridiculous to expect CAMRA to suddenly lower their guard.

 
tdtm82
beers 1704 º places 138 º 13:54 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by haddonsman
Originally posted by tdtm82

This is what I’ve been trying to explain.


Really?

If anyone else uses the term ’craft beer’ in a UK context to support their argument I will come round to your home and shit on your carpet. There is no such thing as craft beer in the UK. You can call it whatever you want. It makes feck-all difference because your definition of craft beer is invariably different to everyone else’s.

Everyone, please: walk away from the thread, grow a pair, get a beer and loosen up.


I’m about to open a Cuvee Delphine as it’s Neil’s last set on ineffect.

 
bobinlondon
beers 1298 º places 14 º 14:01 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by tdtm82


I’m about to open a Cuvee Delphine as it’s Neil’s last set on ineffect.

I hope that the bottle has conditioned it properly

 
EdKing
beers 3487 º places 280 º 14:52 Mon 5/30/2011

Walking away... got a Founders Porter out of the fridge....is it bottle conditioned though? Couldn’t give a f***. Tastes amazing.

 
tdtm82
beers 1704 º places 138 º 15:15 Mon 5/30/2011

Originally posted by bobinlondon
Originally posted by tdtm82


I’m about to open a Cuvee Delphine as it’s Neil’s last set on ineffect.

I hope that the bottle has conditioned it properly


vintage 2009, tasting amazing.