Fermenting with Brett and Lager yeast.

Reads 2061 • Replies 26 • Started Saturday, November 14, 2015 3:42:42 PM CT

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HornyDevil
15:05 Mon 11/16/2015

Originally posted by fleetwoodfba
Brewed this Saturday

4.25 # German Pilsner
4 # White Wheat
15 ounces of Munich

.45 Hallertau at 60

OG is 1.035. Pitched White Labs Brett B. Once I get down to around 1.020-15 I’m going to add White Labs lager yeast and put in the fridge. To answer someone’s question as to what I hope to achieve, I’m just experimenting with the combination of yeasts.


Here’s the good news: your grainbill will provide a decent amount of ferulic acid to be converted into 4 vinyl guaiacol.

The bad news?: Brett doesn’t produce as much ferulate hydroxylase as Sacch. does, so you won’t end up with as much 4VG as you would have if you used a Sacch. strain FIRST. Or at least by copitching it.

This is why Brett in the secondary after a Sacch. strain produces more Brett character.

You’ll still end up with some Brett character, but not as much as if you added it after your Sacch. strain had finished.

Also, adding your lager strain and then cold crashing the beer will cause a couple issues. The first being flocculation of Brett and a VERY slow lag phase of your lager strain. What temperature are you planning on fermenting in the fridge? Are you pitching a large starter of the lager yeast? Are you planning on doing a diacetyl rest after fermentation has slowed? Are you going to lager this beer or just primary ferment it colder?

 
HornyDevil
15:12 Mon 11/16/2015

Originally posted by joeneugs
Leave it to HD and CLevar to make a geeky subject sound even geekier.


If geeky means getting people to understand why they get the results that they do, I’m all for geeky.

Originally posted by joeneugs
Really though, I don’t think the lager yeast will show up much in this beer since most, if not all of its food will already be gone by the time you pitch it.


Agreed.

It might be able to ferment some of the simpler sugars left, but that won’t be much by the time it’s made it through lag phase. The only thing that will help it is the decrease in temperature, but, even then, it won’t help THAT much.

Sacch. first, then Brett. Next time.

 
CLevar
places 23 º 17:21 Mon 11/16/2015

Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by CLevar
Originally posted by t0rin0
Originally posted by Zer0
Why do you assume he wants to make a sour beer? Brett fermentation does not equal sour beer...


And I corrected myself... but I still think it’s pointless to use the lager yeast at all if you want brett flavor.


I don’t know if this is accurate. There have been a number of people that suggest using lager yeast in conjunction with Brett., due perhaps to conversion of some of the S containing compounds thrown by lager yeasts. As an example, NB ferments many of their sours with a lager yeast prior to the addition of souring bacteria and Brett. http://www.newbelgium.com/beer/detail.aspx?id=4e583fd6-95e4-4ea0-908c-4436f5dc8fa8


I can’t see this producing very prominent Brett character, as lager yeast (at lager temperatures) tend not to produce a high concentration of the vinyl phenols needed for Brett to reduce into their ethyl counterparts. Not saying that it would produce a bad beer, just not an overly "funky" one. That would, however, depend highly on the temperature at which he fermented his beer.

As to the OP’s question, Brett character isn’t from fermentation, it is from conversion of certain chemicals into others, so the presence of fermentables isn’t necessary, but since Brett can ferment more complex sugars than can sacch., there will inevitably be food for it.


This would be true if "Brett. character" is due only to the conversion of phenols to the ethyl phenol...but it’s not. Sure, the most well known (ie, Wikipedia...) Brett characteristics are due to these ethyl phenols, but it’s not the only thing that is "Bretty".

 
HornyDevil
17:26 Mon 11/16/2015

Originally posted by CLevar
This would be true if "Brett. character" is due only to the conversion of phenols to the ethyl phenol...but it’s not. Sure, the most well known (ie, Wikipedia...) Brett characteristics are due to these ethyl phenols, but it’s not the only thing that is "Bretty".


I’m curious as to what you’d be referring to here. Especially in a fermentation that only contains Sacch. and Brett species. The ester of some VFA?

My first thought would be ethyl lactate, but that requires LABs.

Little help?

 
CLevar
places 23 º 20:07 Mon 11/16/2015

Brett has (in general) a high level of esterase activity, meaning that in the presence of an acid and an alcohol, ester formation is favored. And while you won’t get acid levels to the same level as, say, lactate when LAB are going hard, there are a variety of carboxylic acids that will be present in fermenting beer. Combine this with with compounds like ATHP, etc, and I have a hard time believing that a "POF-" Sacch. fermented beer finished with Brett. won’t have any Brett. character. Unlikely that the Lager yeast will yeild as much character as, say, a Belgian strain though, on that I will agree (or at least a different kind of character).

Granted, there’s other problems here, as highlighted previously- Brett followed by lager yeast is likely going to taste a lot like Brett only. I do wonder how the lager yeast might help pull down the Brett though for a brighter beer? could be worth it only for that (Though it begs the question, why not just use 1968 or something super flocculent)

 
ekstedt
beers 7883 º places 348 º 03:16 Tue 11/17/2015

<anecdote>
I’ve been victom to around 5 unintentional Brett contaminations during my soon ten year homebrewing career, for various reasons. Two of these happended to lagers, one pils and one doppelbock. They had plenty of classical barnyard/horse/leather Brett character, along with increased carbonation. Neither more nor less than the ones fermented with a Sacc. strain.
</anectode>

 
HornyDevil
04:58 Tue 11/17/2015

Originally posted by CLevar
I do wonder how the lager yeast might help pull down the Brett though for a brighter beer? could be worth it only for that (Though it begs the question, why not just use 1968 or something super flocculent)


If he wanted this effect, why not just lager/cold crash a 100% Brett beer?

FWIW, most of my Brett beers drop pretty damn clear. Lager clear? Maybe not, but pretty close.

 
HornyDevil
06:29 Tue 11/17/2015

Originally posted by ekstedtI’ve been victom to around 5 unintentional Brett contaminations during my soon ten year homebrewing career, for various reasons. Two of these happended to lagers, one pils and one doppelbock. They had plenty of classical barnyard/horse/leather Brett character, along with increased carbonation. Neither more nor less than the ones fermented with a Sacc. strain.


Would it be fair to say that these contaminations occurred post-fermentation and post-lagering, i.e. while packaging?

And you meant "ale strain" when you said "sacch. strain", right?

 
ekstedt
beers 7883 º places 348 º 08:54 Tue 11/17/2015

Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by ekstedtI’ve been victom to around 5 unintentional Brett contaminations during my soon ten year homebrewing career, for various reasons. Two of these happended to lagers, one pils and one doppelbock. They had plenty of classical barnyard/horse/leather Brett character, along with increased carbonation. Neither more nor less than the ones fermented with a Sacc. strain.


Would it be fair to say that these contaminations occurred post-fermentation and post-lagering, i.e. while packaging?

And you meant "ale strain" when you said "sacch. strain", right?


No, I am pretty certain that the lagering vessel was the culprit for the lagers, and also for a barley wine that was affected. When I replaced this plastic bucket, the problem disappeared. It was a failed tap solution which you can see in the image in this blog post: http://fabrikorekstedt.blogspot.se/2010/07/wit-brett.html

Yes, I meant S. cerevisiae strains. Once a barley wine as mentioned above (WY 1968). Another time a belgian blonde that didn’t start fermenting properly, so I tossed in a satchet of 1118 and it turned out great, but eventually turned bretty (but pretty good actually, a bit Orval-ish). And finally a triplish thing fermented with QA23 and with some Alsace-wine added, where the latter could have contributed some Brett perhaps.

Besides from those cases, I have not had any contaminations issues.

 
HornyDevil
09:26 Tue 11/17/2015

Originally posted by ekstedt
No, I am pretty certain that the lagering vessel was the culprit for the lagers, and also for a barley wine that was affected. When I replaced this plastic bucket, the problem disappeared.


OK. Right on. Brett can be pretty insidious when it gets in plastic, as it forms a biofilm and can be difficult, if not impossible, to remove even with strong anti-microbials.

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