Originally posted by zdk
Originally posted by puzzl
Originally posted by zdk
Originally posted by puzzl
Originally posted by StuartCarter
Originally posted by GodOfThunder
The key is the brewers, and getting them to switch to better importers like B. United and upstart 12%.
I see that Jolly Pumpkin and St. Somewhere are still on Shelton’s roster. I can’t imagine either Bob Sylvester or Ron Jeffries being pleased with Shelton’s actions and arrogance.
how is it arrogance to ask for a level playing field?
It was a plenty even playing field. Any brewery or importer could have started up in NY if they wanted the benefits. States are free to tax their businesses as they choose, and if New York lowers taxes for in-state breweries as an incentive for them to operate in-state I see no problem with that. Do you think that businesses operating in the US and selling in the US should not get local privileges over businesses operating in China and selling to the US? We want to keep businesses and labor local for a whole myriad of reasons, and tax exemptions are a great way to do that.
I do have a bit of a problem with this argument and its how you’re defining local. I brought up this point in the other thread, but how is it that a brewery from Syracuse, NY is more local to NYC than a brewery on the other side of the Hudson in NJ?
Plus I don’t really buy the argument that people are necessarily better off by erecting financial barriers to external competition. Ok so we’re quibbling about a relatively small excise tax, but if localism is so great, why doesn’t NYC institute a tax for importing beer from long island? Why doesn’t Manhattan tax Brooklyn beer? At what political or geographic boundary does it make economic sense to say "us vs them" and implement a tariff? As far as I’m aware, there’s no real economic argument to doing so (besides for political protectionism)
This isn’t about NYC, it’s about NY.
actually it is, since (someone mentioned, I haven’t checked this) there’s an additional 12 cent excise tax (per gallon?) on top of the statewide tax in the city.
Anyway, my point is that if favoring local business is good to do at the state level, isn’t it also good to do at the city level (and the borough level?, etc).
Do you have any idea how sales tax is levied in New York State? The state sets a minimum, then local municipalities tack on an additional percentage. This is true of almost every tax levying incorporated village, town or city in New York State. Not just NYC. |
Originally posted by peteinSD
The law was undefensible and in violation of the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution.
Based on binding US Supreme Court precedent, the defendants knew they would lose this case and therefore entered into a settlement to amend the unconstitutional law and pay $160K to shelton brothers and their attorneys.
precedent related to alcohol? congress has allowed states to exercise broad powers to control alcohol, as you know. |
can Americans be proud and honored to pay our taxes again? Yes, when the penalties for unacceptable performance and dishonesty discourage fairly the inept and dishonest. Soon after that lesson is learned we won’t need as many taxes. Like our ancestors knew. |
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So the solution is obvious. Apply the fees to everyone. Double the fees, then give NY brewers an equivalent rebate through a state funded tourism program. The whole point (from NY state’s perspective) was specifically to encourage their in state industry. From a beer lovers perspective it might suck, but from a state funding perspective it makes perfect sense. |
Originally posted by jerc
So the solution is obvious. Apply the fees to everyone. Double the fees, then give NY brewers an equivalent rebate through a state funded tourism program. The whole point (from NY state’s perspective) was specifically to encourage their in state industry. From a beer lovers perspective it might suck, but from a state funding perspective it makes perfect sense.
Yeah - but that adds another whole layer of bureaucracy to a state where bureaucracy is a growth industry.
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Originally posted by StuartCarter
...Was the letter from the Sheltons in poor taste? Abysmally so...
And let’s be honest - this is the biggest sin (from the consumer’s perspective). Tomme Arthur, BeerAdvocate, The Shelton Brothers, and several others in the beer industry have at various times release flawed products. But what differentiates them from Deschutes, Bells, and others who have released flawed products? Their responses. Lost Abbey recently wised up and hired someone to handle customer service/PR, BeerAdvocate has a long ways to go, and now it’s clear the Shelton Brothers do as well.
As the saying goes - It’s not the crime, it’s the cover up (there’s been no crime and no cover up here of course, but hopefully the analogy is clear). |
Originally posted by Cletus
Originally posted by zdk
Originally posted by puzzl
Originally posted by zdk
Originally posted by puzzl
Originally posted by StuartCarter
Originally posted by GodOfThunder
The key is the brewers, and getting them to switch to better importers like B. United and upstart 12%.
I see that Jolly Pumpkin and St. Somewhere are still on Shelton’s roster. I can’t imagine either Bob Sylvester or Ron Jeffries being pleased with Shelton’s actions and arrogance.
how is it arrogance to ask for a level playing field?
It was a plenty even playing field. Any brewery or importer could have started up in NY if they wanted the benefits. States are free to tax their businesses as they choose, and if New York lowers taxes for in-state breweries as an incentive for them to operate in-state I see no problem with that. Do you think that businesses operating in the US and selling in the US should not get local privileges over businesses operating in China and selling to the US? We want to keep businesses and labor local for a whole myriad of reasons, and tax exemptions are a great way to do that.
I do have a bit of a problem with this argument and its how you’re defining local. I brought up this point in the other thread, but how is it that a brewery from Syracuse, NY is more local to NYC than a brewery on the other side of the Hudson in NJ?
Plus I don’t really buy the argument that people are necessarily better off by erecting financial barriers to external competition. Ok so we’re quibbling about a relatively small excise tax, but if localism is so great, why doesn’t NYC institute a tax for importing beer from long island? Why doesn’t Manhattan tax Brooklyn beer? At what political or geographic boundary does it make economic sense to say "us vs them" and implement a tariff? As far as I’m aware, there’s no real economic argument to doing so (besides for political protectionism)
This isn’t about NYC, it’s about NY.
actually it is, since (someone mentioned, I haven’t checked this) there’s an additional 12 cent excise tax (per gallon?) on top of the statewide tax in the city.
Anyway, my point is that if favoring local business is good to do at the state level, isn’t it also good to do at the city level (and the borough level?, etc).
Do you have any idea how sales tax is levied in New York State? The state sets a minimum, then local municipalities tack on an additional percentage. This is true of almost every tax levying incorporated village, town or city in New York State. Not just NYC.
I feel like you’re trying start an argument with me, but I’m not sure how any of this is incompatible with what I said... |
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just another way for the government to take your money and use it for something that we as a democracy didn’t decide on or don’t agree with....... |
Originally posted by 50belair
just another way for the government to take your money and use it for something that we as a democracy didn’t decide on or don’t agree with.......
Not a fan of the tax, but thankfully we are not a Democracy. The people of New York chose their legislature. |
Originally posted by zdk
Originally posted by Cletus
Originally posted by zdk
Originally posted by puzzl
Originally posted by zdk
Originally posted by puzzl
Originally posted by StuartCarter
Originally posted by GodOfThunder
The key is the brewers, and getting them to switch to better importers like B. United and upstart 12%.
I see that Jolly Pumpkin and St. Somewhere are still on Shelton’s roster. I can’t imagine either Bob Sylvester or Ron Jeffries being pleased with Shelton’s actions and arrogance.
how is it arrogance to ask for a level playing field?
It was a plenty even playing field. Any brewery or importer could have started up in NY if they wanted the benefits. States are free to tax their businesses as they choose, and if New York lowers taxes for in-state breweries as an incentive for them to operate in-state I see no problem with that. Do you think that businesses operating in the US and selling in the US should not get local privileges over businesses operating in China and selling to the US? We want to keep businesses and labor local for a whole myriad of reasons, and tax exemptions are a great way to do that.
I do have a bit of a problem with this argument and its how you’re defining local. I brought up this point in the other thread, but how is it that a brewery from Syracuse, NY is more local to NYC than a brewery on the other side of the Hudson in NJ?
Plus I don’t really buy the argument that people are necessarily better off by erecting financial barriers to external competition. Ok so we’re quibbling about a relatively small excise tax, but if localism is so great, why doesn’t NYC institute a tax for importing beer from long island? Why doesn’t Manhattan tax Brooklyn beer? At what political or geographic boundary does it make economic sense to say "us vs them" and implement a tariff? As far as I’m aware, there’s no real economic argument to doing so (besides for political protectionism)
This isn’t about NYC, it’s about NY.
actually it is, since (someone mentioned, I haven’t checked this) there’s an additional 12 cent excise tax (per gallon?) on top of the statewide tax in the city.
Anyway, my point is that if favoring local business is good to do at the state level, isn’t it also good to do at the city level (and the borough level?, etc).
Do you have any idea how sales tax is levied in New York State? The state sets a minimum, then local municipalities tack on an additional percentage. This is true of almost every tax levying incorporated village, town or city in New York State. Not just NYC.
I feel like you’re trying start an argument with me, but I’m not sure how any of this is incompatible with what I said...
Just about every town/village and city in New York state tack on a certain percentage above what the state tacks on. That is not limited to NYC. Is that more clear for you now? |
