Originally posted by CLevar
But when we are talking about fermentation of wort with a "pitch" of unknown diversity, it’s simply not accurate to make broad claims regarding the activity and presence (or lack thereof) of various organisms.
Who said we were talking about fermentation of a wort with a pitch of unknown diversity? Now you’re just making shit up.
Originally posted by CLevar
I’m sorry that you think I’m being thick; I’ve presented you with published research, and you have been responding with unsubstantiated claims and anecdotal evidence. So, until you are willing to actually discuss the vast body of research on the subject of sour fermentation, I’m done here.
Your published research isn’t proving anything as you’re not applying it correctly. You’ve got to learn to reason before you come off as a know-it-all twat. |
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Originally posted by CLevar
But when we are talking about fermentation of wort with a "pitch" of unknown diversity, it’s simply not accurate to make broad claims regarding the activity and presence (or lack thereof) of various organisms.
Who said we were talking about fermentation of a wort with a pitch of unknown diversity? Now you’re just making shit up.
Originally posted by CLevar
I’m sorry that you think I’m being thick; I’ve presented you with published research, and you have been responding with unsubstantiated claims and anecdotal evidence. So, until you are willing to actually discuss the vast body of research on the subject of sour fermentation, I’m done here.
Your published research isn’t proving anything as you’re not applying it correctly. You’ve got to learn to reason before you come off as a know-it-all twat.
Dude.
Deep breath.
Rub your earlobes or whatever you have to do to calm down.
When wort is set outside to get inoculated, or when bottle dregs are dumped into it, or when bottle dregs are stepped up into a starter and dumped into it, or when wort/beer is placed into previously used barrels, this "pitch" is indeed one of unknown diversity. And L. brevis will most likely be there, and will likely contribute in some way.
And aged hops, when used, those are going to contribute too.
And the malt used? Yeah, that contributes as well.
So does the fermentation vessel, and we haven’t even broached that subject yet.
But I’m really glad that you have learned to engage in conversation about a subject that we are both passionate about. I’m sure you gave JInstBrew a good search and did a fine job reviewing the literature before passing judgement on my analysis and declaring me a "know-it-all twat". If only we could all be so rational and mature.
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love when Dr. CLevar brings class into session. always a great learning experience. |
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Originally posted by CLevar
Dude.
Deep breath.
Rub your earlobes or whatever you have to do to calm down.
Good thing you said something, brah, ’cause I was getting ALL kinds of pissed.
Originally posted by CLevar
When wort is set outside to get inoculated, or when bottle dregs are dumped into it, or when bottle dregs are stepped up into a starter and dumped into it, or when wort/beer is placed into previously used barrels, this "pitch" is indeed one of unknown diversity. And L. brevis will most likely be there, and will likely contribute in some way.
And aged hops, when used, those are going to contribute too.
And the malt used? Yeah, that contributes as well.
So does the fermentation vessel, and we haven’t even broached that subject yet.
Seriously? In what world do you brew beer? It must not be the same one that I do. Because in my world, just because you change a minor variable that may change some measurable aspect of the beer, does NOT mean that the end product comes out any different from any way that the human sensory system can perceive. In other words, most of the stuff that you’re talking about are differences that really aren’t. |
Well, back to the thread title for me... Not that I have nearly the experience that some of you do, but the few sour beers I’ve done so far have come out well.
Grain bill: totally depends
-simple pils/oats for light sours
-"traditional" lambic-esque grain bill with half-assed turbid mash
-dark and malty (Flanders red/brown)
Mash: 156-158 usually
Hops:
-have done aged hops in lambic knockoff
-skipped hops altogether
-~20 IBU in a Flanders Brown to keep the sourness lower. That one is still aging, but the hops seem so far to be providing the desired effect (definite tartness but not to the level that this culture usually produces).
Fermentation:
-Roselare for Flanders Red worked well
-Mixed culture of Wyeast Lambic Blend + starters from Cantillon, 3F, Girardin dregs
-Sometimes co-pitch the sour culture with ale yeast
Ferment 3-4 weeks in glass, temp in the mid 60s, then rack to better bottles. Age for several months, until I get around to it, the gravity has bottomed out, no visible activity, it tastes good, etc. Rack onto fruit after a few months, age several more months.
Bottling: so far have force carbonated my sours and bottled with the Beer Gun, but plan to do some bottle conditioning as well pretty soon.
Currently have 50+ gallons of various sour stuff going, very fun to experiment with. |
the only sour I brewed was a totally spontaneous "coolship" type experiment. I called it a sour BUT it’s still not sour after 9 months. shit. |
Grain bill:
All over the place. Mostly 60/40 (pils or pale/wheat malt), but have played around with other stuff.
Mash:
All sorts of different things. Mashing high (156-158 as stated before) seems to work well.
Hops:
Have done 10-20 IBU T90 pellets.
Have done lots of aged hops.
Have done no hops.
Have done dry hoped sours (which is awesome)
Fermentation:
Have used many different types of inoculation strategies. I’m of the opinion that a more diverse pitch is better, especially if the goal is to create something with complexity as opposed to simply being sour and super attenuated. To this end, stepping up dregs in wort+glucose (to help bugs along that can’t ferment maltose) seems to work well, especially when supplemented with healthy pitches of different Brett strains to get things going. I’ve frozen down starters from my favorite breweries in 1ml "bomblets" with glycerol, and stepping these into 100ml YPGM and adding them to beers fermented with Brett or Sacch seems to work really well. Oak spirals inoculated with yeast and bacteria and frozen down in baggies seem to also work OK. Adding oak in some way shape or form seems to be a good thing. Leaving things on the lees for as long as you can stand it seems good. Have some neat stuff going with another RBer that should help us define the pitches we like best.
Fruiting, etc:
Usually only after fermentation is done, maybe after a year or so (+/- 4 months?). Have done short (a few weeks) or long (a few months) on the fruit. Sometimes will rack again. Sometimes will bottle right of the fruit.
Kegs and bottles of sour are both cool. I like having sour on tap, but once it’s gone I usually wish I had gotten around to bottling some. |
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Originally posted by wnoble
the only sour I brewed was a totally spontaneous "coolship" type experiment. I called it a sour BUT it’s still not sour after 9 months. shit.
Where’s the gravity at? What time of year was the wort set out?
When I’ve left wort outside in the late fall/early winter, the cold temp prevented anything from growing reproducibly (n=3, set out 3 mason jars, one developed mold after a week, and the other two didn’t change even after a period of ~4 weeks) |
On a sort of related subject, I’m planning on doing a big sour project that involves using spent wine and spirit barrels as primary fermenters. Anybody have experience with something like this? |
I always use some old hops in the boil when doing a sour beer more for the preservative qualities than anything else. I even use a little when making sahti, even though traditional sahti calls for no hops.
Originally posted by HornyDevil
Rack off of fruit - I try to let the beer condition off of the fruit for at least a couple weeks before bottling
Cold crash? |
