Infected beer - what is this?

Reads 13701 • Replies 39 • Started Sunday, January 3, 2010 4:08:51 AM CT

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TheBeerSommelier
18:44 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by OSLO
Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by OSLO
Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Boiling kills everything living.

No.


Really? Besides the extreme thermofiles, living miles under the ocean (at/in/near hydro thermal sites), name something that survives the boil.

As for mold spores, see:

http://environmental-microbiology.suite101.com/article.cfm/mold_spore_control_best_ways_and_means

"Mold spores are resistant to drying (dessication) and heat, but they may be killed by boiling, ozone, and fungicides containing phenolics and quaternary ammonium treatments."

Are you using an autoclave or a pressure cooker, or are you just doing a normal boil?


We’re talking about boiling wort.

 
TheBeerSommelier
18:50 Sun 1/3/2010


http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/manual/water.shtml

"According to the Wilderness Medical Society, water temperatures above 160° F (70° C) kill all pathogens within 30 minutes and above 185° F (85° C) within a few minutes. So in the time it takes for the water to reach the boiling point (212° F or 100° C) from 160° F (70° C), all pathogens will be killed, even at high altitude."

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-long-do-you-need-to-boil-water/

"The fact is, with a water temperature of 160 to 165 degrees F (74 C) it takes just half an hour for all disease causing organisms to be inactivated. At 185 degrees this is cut to just a few minutes. By the time water hits its boiling point of 212 F (100 C) - plus or minus depending upon pressure or altitude - the water is safe. Even at high altitudes the time it takes for the water to reach a rolling boil and then cool means you can safely drink it.

Lacking a thermometer to measure water temperature, you only need to get your water to a rolling boil. By that point you know the water is hot enough and that the disease organisms in your water were destroyed quite some time earlier. End of story, turn off the heat. Stop wasting fuel. Let the water cool down. Your water is safe to drink!"


http://www.bjcp.org/study.php#wort

"Boiling wort is normally required for the following reasons:

* Extracts, isomerizes and dissolves the hop α-acids
* Stops enzymatic activity
* Kills bacteria, fungi, and wild yeast
* Coagulates undesired proteins and polyphenols in the hot break
* Evaporates undesirable harsh hop oils, sulfur compounds, ketones, and esters.
* Promotes the formation of melanoidins and caramelizes some of the wort sugars (although this is not desirable in all styles)
* Evaporates water vapor, condensing the wort to the proper volume and gravity (this is not a primary reason, it’s a side effect of the process)"

 
sthlm
beers 790 º places 147 º 18:53 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier

http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/manual/water.shtml

"According to the Wilderness Medical Society, water temperatures above 160° F (70° C) kill all pathogens within 30 minutes and above 185° F (85° C) within a few minutes. So in the time it takes for the water to reach the boiling point (212° F or 100° C) from 160° F (70° C), all pathogens will be killed, even at high altitude."

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-long-do-you-need-to-boil-water/

"The fact is, with a water temperature of 160 to 165 degrees F (74 C) it takes just half an hour for all disease causing organisms to be inactivated. At 185 degrees this is cut to just a few minutes. By the time water hits its boiling point of 212 F (100 C) - plus or minus depending upon pressure or altitude - the water is safe. Even at high altitudes the time it takes for the water to reach a rolling boil and then cool means you can safely drink it.

Lacking a thermometer to measure water temperature, you only need to get your water to a rolling boil. By that point you know the water is hot enough and that the disease organisms in your water were destroyed quite some time earlier. End of story, turn off the heat. Stop wasting fuel. Let the water cool down. Your water is safe to drink!"


http://www.bjcp.org/study.php#wort

"Boiling wort is normally required for the following reasons:

* Extracts, isomerizes and dissolves the hop á-acids
* Stops enzymatic activity
* Kills bacteria, fungi, and wild yeast
* Coagulates undesired proteins and polyphenols in the hot break
* Evaporates undesirable harsh hop oils, sulfur compounds, ketones, and esters.
* Promotes the formation of melanoidins and caramelizes some of the wort sugars (although this is not desirable in all styles)
* Evaporates water vapor, condensing the wort to the proper volume and gravity (this is not a primary reason, it’s a side effect of the process)"


http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00455.htm

 
TheBeerSommelier
18:57 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by OSLO
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00455.htm


Really? C’mon. Unless you can do better than this...

"Boiling water kills MOST bacteria. Do not forget about those those that live in the volcanic vents at the bottom of the sea."


...then I think my point is pretty solid.

 
sthlm
beers 790 º places 147 º 19:01 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by OSLO
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00455.htm


Really? C’mon. Unless you can do better than this...

"Boiling water kills MOST bacteria. Do not forget about those those that live in the volcanic vents at the bottom of the sea."


...then I think my point is pretty solid.

How much did you actually read?
"You have made an incorrect assumption. Boiling does NOT kill all bacteria. There are bacteria that form spores, which are structures that help them to survive harmful environmental conditions, such as
drying and high heat, etc. Spores can withstand boiling. To truly sterilize something, it must be free of all microbes AND spores. In most cases this must be done in an autoclave or pressure cooker.
At atmospheric pressure, the boiling point of water cannot go higher than 212 deg. F. So to get the temperature to go higher, we must raise the pressure. This is what an autoclave does. Autoclaves
are expensive, but a pressure cooker can be purchased at Target or Walmart, etc. One must be careful to follow the directions very carefully though as the contents are under pressure and will be hotter than boiling. As long as the liquid is covered so nothing can get in, after autoclaving or pressure cooking it should be free of microbes until it is opened again."

Pretty sure they weren’t talking about bacteria in volcanic vents in that portion.

 
TheBeerSommelier
19:02 Sun 1/3/2010



Oh - and I must add that I have the utmost respect for Brandon’s (Wunderbier) knowledge regarding beer, brewing and the industry. It’s actually VERY odd I see him post something about which I have question or doubt.

 
TheBeerSommelier
19:08 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by OSLO


I’m sorry, but not only is this simply not a real-world scenario, but the links I provided earlier cover this.

In reality, show me one person, in the history of the world, who’s become sick from microbes or mold spores in his beer that were unaffected by the boiling process.

 
sthlm
beers 790 º places 147 º 19:09 Sun 1/3/2010
 
sthlm
beers 790 º places 147 º 19:10 Sun 1/3/2010

Clostridium botulinum. (sometimes called "botch") is a spore-forming bacterium which grows only in the absence of oxygen. Owing to this characteristic, and to its preferences for a protein diet, it is called a "putrefactive anaerobe". It grows best at temperatures between 86o and 98o F, although growth can occur at any temperature between 50o F and 100o F. The spores are found everywhere in the soil and any food may be contaminated with them. The bacteria themselves are not poisonous and we eat them every day in our food. It is only the toxin which they liberate when they grow in a food, which is poisonous. The spores are very heat resistant and can survive from 5 to 10 hours in boiling water. Since Clostridium botulinum grows readily in vegetables (except tomatoes), meats, fish and poultry, all such foods must receive a process designed to kill the spores of this bacterium.

 
sthlm
beers 790 º places 147 º 19:11 Sun 1/3/2010

In order to achieve long-term microbial stability in foods, it is necessary to inactivate the more highly heat-resistant bacterial spores which require temperatures in the range of 110- 150oc. These temperatures are well above the boiling point of water at standard conditions, and can only be achieved with the use of water (or steam) under pressure in specialized equipment called retorts or autoclaves. Because of the severity of these heat treatments, they also accomplish the objectives of pasteurization, and are capable of rendering the food commercially sterile. Thus, this type of heat treatment is known as sterilization, and much of this module will address thermal processing applied to sterilization of canned foods (canning).