Infected beer - what is this?

Reads 13708 • Replies 39 • Started Sunday, January 3, 2010 4:08:51 AM CT

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TheBeerSommelier
19:16 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by OSLO
In general, bacterial spores are extremely resistant to heat, cold, and chemical agents. Bacterial spores are known which can live through 16 to 18 hours in boiling water. To the canner, the bacteria are the most important and troublesome of the microorganisms. Bacteria in themselves are comparatively harmless but the enzymes which they excrete can produce undesirable changes in food, and in some cases can produce substances poisonous to the consumer of the food, such as C. Botulinum.


First, is that an undergrad paper?

Second, what’s the actual occurrence of this organism in real-world brewing circumstances? There are too many other logistical questions to even ask here.

Third, the original prompting statement was:

"Apparently, poorly stored malt can also be infected by Aspergillus or Penicillium, which also result in gushing of the finished beer."

To which, I queried as to how that’d be possible, after boiling said malt. So you’re drifting pretty far off question here.

 
sthlm
beers 790 º places 147 º 19:27 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
First, is that an undergrad paper?

Look like lecture notes to me, considering it is broken up by lecture number.


Second, what’s the actual occurrence of this organism in real-world brewing circumstances? There are too many other logistical questions to even ask here.

Third, the original prompting statement was:

"Apparently, poorly stored malt can also be infected by Aspergillus or Penicillium, which also result in gushing of the finished beer."

To which, I queried as to how that’d be possible, after boiling said malt. So you’re drifting pretty far off question here.

This isn’t drifting at all. You think that normal boiling of water kills everything in water. This isn’t the case. You have to achieve temperatures above those which you can achieve at normal atmospheric pressure. This is why autoclaves are used. Will normal boiling kill most things? Yes. All thing though? No.

 
TheBeerSommelier
19:34 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by OSLO
Will normal boiling kill most things? Yes. All thing though? No.


Ok, since you’re being so literal, I’ll ask again: can you show me one person, in the history of the world, who has ever become sick from drinking beer infected with any of the above stated organisms?

And sorry, but for debate’s sake, I’ll take the word of a Princeton text book, over class notes (from the U of FL?) any day.

 
sthlm
beers 790 º places 147 º 19:45 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by OSLO
Will normal boiling kill most things? Yes. All thing though? No.


Ok, since you’re being so literal, I’ll ask again: can you show me one person, in the history of the world, who has ever become sick from drinking beer infected with any of the above stated organisms?

And sorry, but for debate’s sake, I’ll take the word of a Princeton text book, over class notes (from the U of FL?) any day.

For the love of god. It isn’t like I’m trying to be overly literal, but you cannot understand how an organism can withstand boiling at standard atmospheric pressure, and I’m telling you that it is possible. This is what I’m guessing is happening with what Wunderbier mentioned. Believe the notes, don’t belive the notes, I don’t really care because I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be happy with any source I would provide you. Finally, why are you bringing up people getting sick? Where did that get started? The OP mentioned the bottles gushing, wunderbier mentioned the beers gushing...not people getting sick.

 
TheBeerSommelier
19:51 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by OSLO
Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by OSLO
Will normal boiling kill most things? Yes. All thing though? No.


Ok, since you’re being so literal, I’ll ask again: can you show me one person, in the history of the world, who has ever become sick from drinking beer infected with any of the above stated organisms?

And sorry, but for debate’s sake, I’ll take the word of a Princeton text book, over class notes (from the U of FL?) any day.

For the love of god. It isn’t like I’m trying to be overly literal, but you cannot understand how an organism can withstand boiling at standard atmospheric pressure, and I’m telling you that it is possible. This is what I’m guessing is happening with what Wunderbier mentioned. Believe the notes, don’t belive the notes, I don’t really care because I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be happy with any source I would provide you. Finally, why are you bringing up people getting sick? Where did that get started? The OP mentioned the bottles gushing, wunderbier mentioned the beers gushing...not people getting sick.


Yup you’re correct - gushing bottles. So I’ll rephrase:

Please show me the occurrence of even one bottle of beer becoming infected by any organism living on malt, surviving the boil, to infect said bottle.

Quit nitpicking and simply prove wrong the point I’ve been attempting to make.

 
sthlm
beers 790 º places 147 º 20:04 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by OSLO
Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by OSLO
Will normal boiling kill most things? Yes. All thing though? No.


Ok, since you’re being so literal, I’ll ask again: can you show me one person, in the history of the world, who has ever become sick from drinking beer infected with any of the above stated organisms?

And sorry, but for debate’s sake, I’ll take the word of a Princeton text book, over class notes (from the U of FL?) any day.

For the love of god. It isn’t like I’m trying to be overly literal, but you cannot understand how an organism can withstand boiling at standard atmospheric pressure, and I’m telling you that it is possible. This is what I’m guessing is happening with what Wunderbier mentioned. Believe the notes, don’t belive the notes, I don’t really care because I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be happy with any source I would provide you. Finally, why are you bringing up people getting sick? Where did that get started? The OP mentioned the bottles gushing, wunderbier mentioned the beers gushing...not people getting sick.


Yup you’re correct - gushing bottles. So I’ll rephrase:

Please show me the occurrence of even one bottle of beer becoming infected by any organism living on malt, surviving the boil, to infect said bottle.

Quit nitpicking and simply prove wrong the point I’ve been attempting to make.

This looks like a by-product that survives the boil:
http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/gudmestad.html

Another:
http://www.crc.dk/flab/fusarium.htm

I was never nitpicking, and I honestly cannot fathom how you think I was. There are organisms which can survive the boil. Organisms can produce things that will survive the boil even if they do not. Boiling at normal atmospheric pressure does not kill everything. That isn’t nitpicking, that is a fact. That is why autoclaves are used. This is the last post I will make on the subject.

 
TheBeerSommelier
20:10 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by OSLO
This looks like a by-product that survives the boil:
http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/gudmestad.html

Another:
http://www.crc.dk/flab/fusarium.htm



Now these are very interesting, directly-related sources that address my question. Thank you. Seriously.

 
wunderbier
beers 1434 º places 17 º 21:37 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by OSLO
This looks like a by-product that survives the boil:
http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/gudmestad.html

Another:
http://www.crc.dk/flab/fusarium.htm



Now these are very interesting, directly-related sources that address my question. Thank you. Seriously.



Yes, that’s them! Should have linked some sources myself, I guess!

I really have no idea about the how’s of it. When the chemistry and biology gets this fine, I find it’s usually better to claim ignorance. I thought it was deoxynivalenol (DON) that caused the gushing as suggested in the BT article. Then I found these two articles. I feel there’s probably more about beer we don’t know than we do know.

 
TheBeerSommelier
21:49 Sun 1/3/2010

Originally posted by wunderbier
Originally posted by TheBeerSommelier
Originally posted by OSLO
This looks like a by-product that survives the boil:
http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/gudmestad.html

Another:
http://www.crc.dk/flab/fusarium.htm



Now these are very interesting, directly-related sources that address my question. Thank you. Seriously.



Yes, that’s them! Should have linked some sources myself, I guess!

I really have no idea about the how’s of it. When the chemistry and biology gets this fine, I find it’s usually better to claim ignorance. I thought it was deoxynivalenol (DON) that caused the gushing as suggested in the BT article. Then I found these two articles. I feel there’s probably more about beer we don’t know than we do know.


Very true! This info really surprises me...it flies in the face of everything we learn about brewing - that something can actually pass through the boil, to subsequently infect the finished beer.

Definitely food for thought (pun intended).

 
TheRealBastard
beers 145 º places 12 º 22:16 Sun 1/3/2010

bump