What is a Kolsch Style

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Message Cletus beers 6349 º places 233 º 18:03 Sun 5/11/2008 Originally posted by rpattinson Originally posted by jjpm74 Any top fermenting beer by definition is an ale. The Germans call it Kolsch. Not Lagerbier. Not all top-fermenting beer is Ale. Not even all British top-fermenting styles are ales. The Germans describe both Altbier and Kölsch as Obergäriges Lagerbier. I don’t notice the word "Ale" anywhere in there. I think we should respect the German beer culture and let them define what their beers are and what they are called. I already defined what both that phrase and the other phrase you asked about translate to in English. Look at my post below the one you quoted as I think you’re just being silly at this point in arguing what an English speaker is going to use as their stylistic definitions for German terms. The Russians spell kvass kbac and refer to it as a table drink. Native Tribesmen refer to Chicha as nectar of the gods. Should we cast out all definitions in the brewing industry to accommodate them as well?
Message rpattinson beers 84 º 16:30 Wed 5/14/2008 Originally posted by jjpm74 Originally posted by rpattinson Originally posted by jjpm74 Any top fermenting beer by definition is an ale. The Germans call it Kolsch. Not Lagerbier. Not all top-fermenting beer is Ale. Not even all British top-fermenting styles are ales. The Germans describe both Altbier and Kölsch as Obergäriges Lagerbier. I don’t notice the word "Ale" anywhere in there. I think we should respect the German beer culture and let them define what their beers are and what they are called. I already defined what both that phrase and the other phrase you asked about translate to in English. Look at my post below the one you quoted as I think you’re just being silly at this point in arguing what an English speaker is going to use as their stylistic definitions for German terms. The Russians spell kvass kbac and refer to it as a table drink. Native Tribesmen refer to Chicha as nectar of the gods. Should we cast out all definitions in the brewing industry to accommodate them as well? I don’t quite understand why a Lagerbier is a Lager in English of bottom-fermented and an Ale if top-fermented. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just explain what you think the difference is between the use of Lagerbier in tehse two contexts. And exactly what is an Ale? Just any top-fermenting beer? That’s a very Anglo-centric view.
Message Cletus beers 6349 º places 233 º 18:09 Wed 5/14/2008 Originally posted by rpattinson I don’t quite understand why a Lagerbier is a Lager in English of bottom-fermented and an Ale if top-fermented. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just explain what you think the difference is between the use of Lagerbier in tehse two contexts. And exactly what is an Ale? Just any top-fermenting beer? That’s a very Anglo-centric view. A lagerbier is not a lager. In German, lagerbier is applied to any beer that is cold stored for a period. The English word lager when referring to a type of beer refers specifically to bottom fermented beers. They have two different meanings and two different uses. In German, Obergäriges Lagerbier refers to top fermented beer. In English, the term for top fermented beer is Ale. In German, Untergäriges Lagerbier refers to bottom fermented beer. In English, the term for bottom fermented beer is lager. Now do you understand the difference? You’re trying to use lagerbier and lager interchangeably, arguing they mean the same thing. They mean different things in different languages and are applied differently. Thus, an English speaker calling a Kolsch an Ale is correct in their own language. In German, they would call it Obergäriges Lagerbier or simply Kolsch. Cheers.

Message Cletus beers 6349 º places 233 º 18:25 Wed 5/14/2008 To expand a little, I bet if you asked a Fin what the Finnish words are for Lager and Ale, they wouldn’t be lager and ale. Same if you ask a Czech. Where the confusion comes in when using the word lager in English is that when applying the word as a noun, you’re talking about a specific type of beer. When applying the word as a verb, its meaning changes and then becomes the German equivalent lagerbier. Example: 1. Pilsners are lagers. Here, lager is used as a noun and the sentence means that pilsners are bottom fermented beers. 2. Right now I’m laggering my Kolsch style beer. Here, the term laggering means that I’m presently cold storing my kolsch style beer.
Message SilkTork P beers 7744 º places 111 º 18:44 Wed 5/14/2008 Originally posted by jjpm74 Originally posted by rpattinson And exactly what is an Ale? In English, the term for top fermented beer is Ale. It’s common to divide ales and lagers by where the yeast ferments, though there are ale yeasts which ferment at the bottom - a number of British brewers use them - most notably Fullers. The resulting beer tends to be cleaner than the average ale, though still recognisably ale. The temperature at which the fermentation takes place is more decisive in the character of a beer. A cooler temperature results in a slower fermentation which gives a cleaner, dryer, crisper tasting beer. A warmer temperature results in a faster fermentation which gives a fuller, fatter, sweeter, butterier, fruitier tasting beer. I’ve not had many Kolsch, but all the ones I’ve had have been unmistakenly lagers. The history, attitude and thrust of the brewing of these beers has been to hit the pilsner market. They are brewed, marketed and taste like lagers. Calling a Kolsch an ale is like calling Fullers ESB a lager because it’s bottom-fermented. People can and do call Kolsch an ale, and by some text books they’d be right, but they are calling a walking, quacking, bad-tempered duck a cow, and that can’t be right.
Message Cletus beers 6349 º places 233 º 19:52 Wed 5/14/2008 Originally posted by SilkTork Originally posted by jjpm74 Originally posted by rpattinson And exactly what is an Ale? In English, the term for top fermented beer is Ale. It’s common to divide ales and lagers by where the yeast ferments, though there are ale yeasts which ferment at the bottom - a number of British brewers use them - most notably Fullers. The resulting beer tends to be cleaner than the average ale, though still recognisably ale. The temperature at which the fermentation takes place is more decisive in the character of a beer. A cooler temperature results in a slower fermentation which gives a cleaner, dryer, crisper tasting beer. A warmer temperature results in a faster fermentation which gives a fuller, fatter, sweeter, butterier, fruitier tasting beer. I’ve not had many Kolsch, but all the ones I’ve had have been unmistakenly lagers. The history, attitude and thrust of the brewing of these beers has been to hit the pilsner market. They are brewed, marketed and taste like lagers. Calling a Kolsch an ale is like calling Fullers ESB a lager because it’s bottom-fermented. People can and do call Kolsch an ale, and by some text books they’d be right, but they are calling a walking, quacking, bad-tempered duck a cow, and that can’t be right. Let me add the magic word to each: Ale Yeast Lager Yeast Kolsch is not fermented with a lager yeast. It is laggered after primary fermentation like you would do with a lager yeast. Cheers.
Message SilkTork P beers 7744 º places 111 º 02:43 Thu 5/15/2008 Originally posted by jjpm74 Let me add the magic word to each: Ale Yeast Lager Yeast Kolsch is not fermented with a lager yeast. It is laggered after primary fermentation like you would do with a lager yeast. Cheers. Yeast adapt to the local conditions and can sometimes be made to behave differently to classification. What has happened with Kolsch is that the brewers took what they had and used it to create lager. They took their existing ale yeast and got it to ferment at lower temperatures in order to produce a pilsner-like beer. It is interesting to note how a beer arrives at the final product - and we all like it when a beer uses wholesome ingredients - but brewers have and do use various ingredients and methods in order to produce a product that will appeal to the current fashion. A notable characteristic of a "barrel-aged" beer will be the flavour of the oak. This characteristic can be achieved by leaving oak chips inside a steel tank rather than leaving the beer in an oak barrel. The resulting beer will taste the same. Beer production has changed over the years as more modern methods are explored and used. Different ways of achieving the same end result. Some of these ways result in variations which we note as interesting. Kolsch is an interesting way of making a beer that resembles lager. I think Ron’s point is that the brewers think of it as a lager. The drinkers think of it as a lager. It looks, tastes and behaves like a lager. The brewing method is that of a lager. That the yeast hangs about at the top is noteworthy - same as that the yeast in Fuller’s ales hangs about at the bottom - but that is only one aspect of the beer, and is not in this case the defining one.

Message User37895 beers 3085 º places 92 º 04:21 Thu 5/15/2008 Originally posted by SilkTork Originally posted by jjpm74 Let me add the magic word to each: Ale Yeast Lager Yeast Kolsch is not fermented with a lager yeast. It is laggered after primary fermentation like you would do with a lager yeast. Cheers. Yeast adapt to the local conditions and can sometimes be made to behave differently to classification. What has happened with Kolsch is that the brewers took what they had and used it to create lager. They took their existing ale yeast and got it to ferment at lower temperatures in order to produce a pilsner-like beer. It is interesting to note how a beer arrives at the final product - and we all like it when a beer uses wholesome ingredients - but brewers have and do use various ingredients and methods in order to produce a product that will appeal to the current fashion. A notable characteristic of a "barrel-aged" beer will be the flavour of the oak. This characteristic can be achieved by leaving oak chips inside a steel tank rather than leaving the beer in an oak barrel. The resulting beer will taste the same. Beer production has changed over the years as more modern methods are explored and used. Different ways of achieving the same end result. Some of these ways result in variations which we note as interesting. Kolsch is an interesting way of making a beer that resembles lager. I think Ron’s point is that the brewers think of it as a lager. The drinkers think of it as a lager. It looks, tastes and behaves like a lager. The brewing method is that of a lager. That the yeast hangs about at the top is noteworthy - same as that the yeast in Fuller’s ales hangs about at the bottom - but that is only one aspect of the beer, and is not in this case the defining one. I agree whole-heartedly with both of you. Silk, you’re dead on, based on experience and what the product actually is - crisp, clean, fresh lager. John, though, is also correct in the minds of folks that have academized brewing (bjcp) and chosen to choose the type of yeast as the key defining technical attribute as to ale vs. lager. Overall, I side with it being a lager, per your exact reasoninng, Silk. It’s what the Koln natives would say too. This side of the Pond, folks would disagree based on jjpm’s rationale (many of whom have probably never drank a real koelsch in Koln). I’d be curious to see what Bavarians call it, since it is technically NOT bottom fermented, and as it also does tend to have some light (and still quite clean) fruity-ale elements mingled into the flavor profile too. I’ve been to both areas of Germany, and with the local pride that has developed over specific styles of beer, there may be resistance outside Koln to dub it a true "lager."
Message Mangino beers 1027 º places 15 º 06:22 Thu 5/15/2008 A Kolsch is an Ale. It is fermented (traditionally) with an ale strain.
Message rpattinson beers 84 º 11:46 Thu 5/15/2008 Originally posted by MrFacto A Kolsch is an Ale. It is fermented (traditionally) with an ale strain. It’s fermented with a German top-fermenting yeast strain. Not the same thing as an Ale strain.