Mash Thickness

I always thought the 1-2qt/lb was more a product of MLT size vs. a lot of science. The research I’ve read on the Beer in a Bag setups that are mashing at 3-4qt/lb show greater efficiency, slightly maltier wort, and less risk of tannins due to the lack of sparging. Its all 1st runnings basically. I think no sparge is something commercial breweries can’t do economically but works a great in a home setup. I think water/grain ratio is one of those areas homebrewers try to emulate commercial brewers but should really take advantage of the smaller scale and mash thin/no sparge to save time, get higher quality wort, and save on equipment costs (ie no HLT)

Also, I think you can get the higher or equal efficiency with the high water/grain ratio because you can crush a lot finer due to the lack of sparge.

Originally posted by OldStyleCubFan
I always thought the 1-2qt/lb was more a product of MLT size vs. a lot of science. The research I’ve read on the Beer in a Bag setups that are mashing at 3-4qt/lb show greater efficiency, slightly maltier wort, and less risk of tannins due to the lack of sparging. Its all 1st runnings basically.

Originally posted by OldStyleCubFan
I think no sparge is something commercial breweries can’t do economically but works a great in a home setup. I think water/grain ratio is one of those areas homebrewers try to emulate commercial brewers but should really take advantage of the smaller scale and mash thin/no sparge to save time, get higher quality wort, and save on equipment costs (ie no HLT)

Originally posted by OldStyleCubFan
Also, I think you can get the higher or equal efficiency with the high water/grain ratio because you can crush a lot finer due to the lack of sparge.

By increasing the attenuation limit, it means you get a more fermentable wort. That’s just the German way of saying it (I pulled that out of a german brewing science book). And the Thermal degradation point is that at higher mash temperatures, a thicker mash slows down the denaturing of amylase enzymes (mostly beta, which denatures at over 150F). So if you are doing a high single infusion, you will get poorer beta activity with a thinner mash. For doing lower gravity beer, a thin mash shouldn’t be a problem because you are already looking for less fermentabiity in most cases. 3 quarts per pound is high, but not out of this world for typical German mashing programs, which are usually thinner because the mash has to be pumped between vessels for lautering/decoction.

7.9pH is pretty high for brewing water and I would get some test strips to see what you are getting. Since you aren’t sparging, you would probably just want to get the mash down under 5.6 or so, but 5.2-5.4 is the general target. With all pale malts, you need water that is high in calcium/low in carbonates in order to hit the optimal range without acidification. 1% of sauermalz is supposed to lower mash pH by 0.1 so if you measure your next mash, you can get an idea of how much of it to add after mashing in. Then add the sauermalz and check the mash again and see if you need more. Higher pH extract more tannin and you might like the smoother flavor that you get with an optimized mash pH. You’ll also probably get ever better efficiency.

Very interesting, thanks/danke/cheers!

I do run a cooler mash, keeping it under 150F in the attempt to maximize dryness.

Originally posted by SamGamgee
And the Thermal degradation point is that at higher mash temperatures, a thicker mash slows down the denaturing of amylase enzymes (mostly beta, which denatures at over 150F). So if you are doing a high single infusion, you will get poorer beta activity with a thinner mash.

I’m not completely sure other than the enzymes are just more concentrated. This BYO article has a lot of good mash- thickness information: http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/9-all-grain-brewing/1091-make-those-enzymes-dance

Originally posted by SamGamgee
I’m not completely sure other than the enzymes are just more concentrated.

Originally posted by HornyDevil

Originally posted by SamGamgee
I’m not completely sure other than the enzymes are just more concentrated.

That’s essentially all they say in the article.

The entire article, however, runs counter to what I initially was taught. That being that thick mashes produced more dextrins and thin mashes were more fermentable.

From what they are saying in the article, thick mashes produce less dextrins and yield lower efficiency and thin mashes produce more dextrins and yield greater efficiency.

Originally posted by NobleSquirrel

Originally posted by HornyDevil

Originally posted by SamGamgee
I’m not completely sure other than the enzymes are just more concentrated.

That’s essentially all they say in the article.

The entire article, however, runs counter to what I initially was taught. That being that thick mashes produced more dextrins and thin mashes were more fermentable.

From what they are saying in the article, thick mashes produce less dextrins and yield lower efficiency and thin mashes produce more dextrins and yield greater efficiency.

FWIW, I tend to mash on the thick side (1-1.3qts/lb) and find that my beers are more fermentable. The concentration of the enzyme allows the reaction/conversion to happen faster, at least based on what I’ve read. Also, I think that you can maintain temperature better with the thicker mash due to the thermal capacity of the saturated grains basically insulating the mash.

Originally posted by SamGamgee
In a thin mash at a higher temperature, the lower concentration will slow beta activity and more enzymes will be denatured before more conversion can proceed, allowing alpha amylase to take over more of the conversion and create more dextrins. Enzyme destruction takes time once you pass the denature threshold, and it’s happening all at once. So the best thing I can come up with to interpret what seems to be a universal statement in brewing science, is that the increased concentration of enzymes and substrate in a thicker mash at a higher temperature allows accelerated activity and therefore more beta-to-alpha activity to proceed before the beta is significantly denatured and the alpha is left to finish conversion.