Originally posted by Gichigami
Originally posted by NobleSquirrel
Originally posted by JK
Originally posted by Gichigami
Originally posted by JK
Originally posted by Skyview
Well, that is one more US brewery that can not use the Brewers Association’s Independent Craft Brewer (drain pour logo) seal on their packaging and point of purchase displays.
Yeah, and do you know who else cannot use it? Schells. Merely because they produce too much.
Brewers association guidelines:
Annual production of 6 million barrels of beer or less (approximately 3 percent of U.S. annual sales). Beer production is attributed to the rules of alternating proprietorships.
August Schell’s Brewing Company annual production as of a couple of years ago: ~150,000 barrels
So unless they have increased their production by a factor of 40, they are okay (I believe with their expansion a few years ago their max capacity is now ~250,000 barrels a year). They are also listed by the Brewers Association as a craft brewery, so I think all of these rumors about them not being able to use the new seal should be verified before being repeated.
Thanks for the correction.
Actually, based on Skyview’s prior post, they aren’t allowed due to the date that the brewery was founded (1860) and their status as a regional brewery. Not that it matters, since the new logo is a bullshit gimmick that most of the local brewers here in Chicago are annoyed with. Pretty fucked up when Sierra Nevada & Anchor can’t use it, but Sam Adams can...
Skyview is extremely knowledgeable about beer, but he also seems to be incorrect in this case. I emailed the Brewers Association and they replied with, "... August Schell is qualified to use the Independent Craft Brewer Seal and considered a craft brewer. If you have further questions regarding qualified breweries, please visit our brewery directory on BrewersAssociation.org. Craft breweries have the seal next to their name. Furthermore, you can check out our craft brewer definition here. Please note that the definition does not include mention of founding year or brewery age. ..."
Note that Sierra Nevada and Anchor can also both use the seal.
Who are you and why did you sign up this week just to troll people in forums? Do people really hate macro breweries that much?
Your leading questions are fairly obvious; you want the answers to be Brewery Z is hurt every time, but that is where an informed consumer populous comes in, which is what this site tries to do. Who cares who owns it?
If everyone is so fed up with big beer ownership, why does everyone ride Brooklyn’s train? They have minority investment by Kirin Ichiban, which is an AB InBev subsidiary, and joint ventures with Carlsberg, a huge multinational brewery. |
Originally posted by jbruner
Originally posted by Gichigami
Originally posted by NobleSquirrel
Originally posted by JK
Originally posted by Gichigami
Originally posted by JK
Originally posted by Skyview
Well, that is one more US brewery that can not use the Brewers Association’s Independent Craft Brewer (drain pour logo) seal on their packaging and point of purchase displays.
Yeah, and do you know who else cannot use it? Schells. Merely because they produce too much.
Brewers association guidelines:
Annual production of 6 million barrels of beer or less (approximately 3 percent of U.S. annual sales). Beer production is attributed to the rules of alternating proprietorships.
August Schell’s Brewing Company annual production as of a couple of years ago: ~150,000 barrels
So unless they have increased their production by a factor of 40, they are okay (I believe with their expansion a few years ago their max capacity is now ~250,000 barrels a year). They are also listed by the Brewers Association as a craft brewery, so I think all of these rumors about them not being able to use the new seal should be verified before being repeated.
Thanks for the correction.
Actually, based on Skyview’s prior post, they aren’t allowed due to the date that the brewery was founded (1860) and their status as a regional brewery. Not that it matters, since the new logo is a bullshit gimmick that most of the local brewers here in Chicago are annoyed with. Pretty fucked up when Sierra Nevada & Anchor can’t use it, but Sam Adams can...
Skyview is extremely knowledgeable about beer, but he also seems to be incorrect in this case. I emailed the Brewers Association and they replied with, "... August Schell is qualified to use the Independent Craft Brewer Seal and considered a craft brewer. If you have further questions regarding qualified breweries, please visit our brewery directory on BrewersAssociation.org. Craft breweries have the seal next to their name. Furthermore, you can check out our craft brewer definition here. Please note that the definition does not include mention of founding year or brewery age. ..."
Note that Sierra Nevada and Anchor can also both use the seal.
Who are you and why did you sign up this week just to troll people in forums? Do people really hate macro breweries that much?
Your leading questions are fairly obvious; you want the answers to be Brewery Z is hurt every time, but that is where an informed consumer populous comes in, which is what this site tries to do. Who cares who owns it?
If everyone is so fed up with big beer ownership, why does everyone ride Brooklyn’s train? They have minority investment by Kirin Ichiban, which is an AB InBev subsidiary, and joint ventures with Carlsberg, a huge multinational brewery.
I am not sure how clarifying the BA definitionof independent craft is trolling .
Note, I personally do not see a difference between this and Brooklyn Brewery. |
Originally posted by jbruner
Who are you and why did you sign up this week just to troll people in forums? Do people really hate macro breweries that much?
Your leading questions are fairly obvious; you want the answers to be Brewery Z is hurt every time, but that is where an informed consumer populous comes in, which is what this site tries to do. Who cares who owns it?
If everyone is so fed up with big beer ownership, why does everyone ride Brooklyn’s train? They have minority investment by Kirin Ichiban, which is an AB InBev subsidiary, and joint ventures with Carlsberg, a huge multinational brewery.
Since when did making reasonable arguments counter to JoeT’s narrative become trolling? Seriously, I put time into asking thoughtful, reasonable questions--or at least that is what I attempted. That is not trolling. Yes, the questions had what I thought were fairly obvious answers. Call that leading if you want, but I didn’t intentionally lie or exaggerate anything. Point out what is inaccurate about the questions, and we can actually have a conversation. You talk about informed consumers, but I would bet that the percentage of average consumers who could tell which "crafty" brands AB InBev owns would be minuscule. I don’t hate macro breweries, but I don’t think that we should be portraying them in such a rosy light as JoeT does without considering the potentially serious, negative effects that they can have on the industry. Whether you buy big beer products or not, to not care about who makes your products is just a sad statement on where we are at in society.
Riding Brooklyn’s train? I haven’t heard somebody even mention that brewery in at least five years where I am. I think they even distribute here too. Are they popular where you are? |
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Originally posted by Clownoisseur
I think a lot of the local backlash will come from the ethos of Short’s Brewing only 2 years ago, "Michigan Only, Michigan Forever".
They expanded production and did not hit their numbers. Large in part to the wide-range of choices on the shelf here in Michigan. So, to help cover that expansion cost, they expanded distribution.
People were already upset that they got the cart in front of the horse, so to speak...and had to move to regional distribution.
This rumor was pretty hot and heavy this Spring, and something that Joe (for legal reasons, I’m sure) had to deny at their Anniversary Party back in April.
So, while it’s not a surprise to anybody that has followed Short’s in the past 2 years, it was sad to see their ethos go out the window.
Everybody has a price. But you have nailed it. |
Originally posted by Gichigami
Originally posted by NobleSquirrel
Originally posted by JK
Originally posted by Gichigami
Originally posted by JK
Originally posted by Skyview
Well, that is one more US brewery that can not use the Brewers Association’s Independent Craft Brewer (drain pour logo) seal on their packaging and point of purchase displays.
Yeah, and do you know who else cannot use it? Schells. Merely because they produce too much.
Brewers association guidelines:
Annual production of 6 million barrels of beer or less (approximately 3 percent of U.S. annual sales). Beer production is attributed to the rules of alternating proprietorships.
August Schell’s Brewing Company annual production as of a couple of years ago: ~150,000 barrels
So unless they have increased their production by a factor of 40, they are okay (I believe with their expansion a few years ago their max capacity is now ~250,000 barrels a year). They are also listed by the Brewers Association as a craft brewery, so I think all of these rumors about them not being able to use the new seal should be verified before being repeated.
Thanks for the correction.
Actually, based on Skyview’s prior post, they aren’t allowed due to the date that the brewery was founded (1860) and their status as a regional brewery. Not that it matters, since the new logo is a bullshit gimmick that most of the local brewers here in Chicago are annoyed with. Pretty fucked up when Sierra Nevada & Anchor can’t use it, but Sam Adams can...
Skyview is extremely knowledgeable about beer, but he also seems to be incorrect in this case. I emailed the Brewers Association and they replied with, "... August Schell is qualified to use the Independent Craft Brewer Seal and considered a craft brewer. If you have further questions regarding qualified breweries, please visit our brewery directory on BrewersAssociation.org. Craft breweries have the seal next to their name. Furthermore, you can check out our craft brewer definition here. Please note that the definition does not include mention of founding year or brewery age. ..."
Note that Sierra Nevada and Anchor can also both use the seal.
Actually, Gichigam is correct. Sometimes I get caught up in old information, so I am as only good as the information I receive. In 2012 I had some conversations with August Schell and they were displeased with BA’s decision not to accept them as a "craft brewer" back then. I talked to them this weekend during the All Pints North festival in Duluth and asked them about the Brewers Association’s Independent Craft Brewer membership and if they were allowed. They have said that BA has changed their position since seven years ago and have accepted them as a craft brewer along with others. With the rapid changes in the American craft beer industry that will continue to happen, I appreciate all feedback and hope to keep our archives updated and accurate. |
Originally posted by Gichigami
Originally posted by jbruner
Who are you and why did you sign up this week just to troll people in forums? Do people really hate macro breweries that much?
Your leading questions are fairly obvious; you want the answers to be Brewery Z is hurt every time, but that is where an informed consumer populous comes in, which is what this site tries to do. Who cares who owns it?
If everyone is so fed up with big beer ownership, why does everyone ride Brooklyn’s train? They have minority investment by Kirin Ichiban, which is an AB InBev subsidiary, and joint ventures with Carlsberg, a huge multinational brewery.
Since when did making reasonable arguments counter to JoeT’s narrative become trolling? Seriously, I put time into asking thoughtful, reasonable questions--or at least that is what I attempted. That is not trolling. Yes, the questions had what I thought were fairly obvious answers. Call that leading if you want, but I didn’t intentionally lie or exaggerate anything. Point out what is inaccurate about the questions, and we can actually have a conversation. You talk about informed consumers, but I would bet that the percentage of average consumers who could tell which "crafty" brands AB InBev owns would be minuscule. I don’t hate macro breweries, but I don’t think that we should be portraying them in such a rosy light as JoeT does without considering the potentially serious, negative effects that they can have on the industry. Whether you buy big beer products or not, to not care about who makes your products is just a sad statement on where we are at in society.
Riding Brooklyn’s train? I haven’t heard somebody even mention that brewery in at least five years where I am. I think they even distribute here too. Are they popular where you are?
Signing up just to post in forums, and not contribute to the community in any other way than to insight arguments sounds much like trolling to me. Reasonable questions for debate have answers that can be interpreted any way from differing opinions; if you weren’t trying to be contemptuous you should have just stated your opinion, it would have also come off less troll like.
The average consumer does not know which brands are actually craft and which are "crafty", which is what I feel like most of these beer rating websites should be attempting, informing the average consumer. I don’t think he is trying to portray them in a rosy light, but as we are trying to do here, there are differing opinions in debates. I feel that if it were not for AB, there would be far less innovation and technology in American brewing. Think of Mitch Steele, the brewmasters for Sierra Nevada or Southern Tier, employees at the Bruery and 7venth Sun, and countless others all former Anheuser employees. Do I like their sales tactics, no, but plenty of other large breweries do pay for play, including Boston Beer Co and Dogfish, which is what I feel JoeT was trying to convey.
And other people in this thread have put Brooklyn on the list of moral craft breweries if I am not wrong. I was just trying to point out that it is not just the breweries that are completely owned that have AB InBev in their back pockets. Look into Widmer, Kona, Redhook, Full Sail, Terrapin, Wynwood, Brooklyn, Ballast Point, etc, and those are just AB. |
Originally posted by jbruner
Originally posted by Gichigami
Originally posted by jbruner
Who are you and why did you sign up this week just to troll people in forums? Do people really hate
Since when did making reasonable arguments counter to JoeT’s narrative become trolling? Seriously, I put time into asking thoughtful, reasonable questions--or at least that is what I attempted. That is not trolling. Yes, the questions had what I thought were fairly obvious answers. Call that leading if you want, but I didn’t intentionally lie or exaggerate anything. Point out what is inaccurate about the questions, and we can actually have a conversation. You talk about informed consumers, but I would bet that the percentage of average consumers who could tell which "crafty" brands AB InBev owns would be minuscule. I don’t hate macro breweries, but I don’t think that we should be portraying them in such a rosy light as JoeT does without considering the potentially serious, negative effects that they can have on the industry. Whether you buy big beer products or not, to not care about who makes your products is just a sad statement on where we are at in society.
Riding Brooklyn’s train? I haven’t heard somebody even mention that brewery in at least five years where I am. I think they even distribute here too. Are they popular where you are?
Signing up just to post in forums, and not contribute to the community in any other way than to insight arguments sounds much like trolling to me. Reasonable questions for debate have answers that can be interpreted any way from differing opinions; if you weren’t trying to be contemptuous you should have just stated your opinion, it would have also come off less troll like.
The average consumer does not know which brands are actually craft and which are "crafty", which is what I feel like most of these beer rating websites should be attempting, informing the average consumer. I don’t think he is trying to portray them in a rosy light, but as we are trying to do here, there are differing opinions in debates. I feel that if it were not for AB, there would be far less innovation and technology in American brewing. Think of Mitch Steele, the brewmasters for Sierra Nevada or Southern Tier, employees at the Bruery and 7venth Sun, and countless others all former Anheuser employees. Do I like their sales tactics, no, but plenty of other large breweries do pay for play, including Boston Beer Co and Dogfish, which is what I feel JoeT was trying to convey.
And other people in this thread have put Brooklyn on the list of moral craft breweries if I am not wrong. I was just trying to point out that it is not just the breweries that are completely owned that have AB InBev in their back pockets. Look into Widmer, Kona, Redhook, Full Sail, Terrapin, Wynwood, Brooklyn, Ballast Point, etc, and those are just AB.
1. Incite. You mean incite, not insight.
2. In a world where ABI did not exist, some other macro brewer would likely have done those things and hired those people. Or is this an alt history where brewing consolidation never happens? Or where ales remain dominant in the US? Anyway, reversing 150 years of history is not possible. The question now is how we react to current acquisitions.
3. Ballast Point is not owned by ABI. They have US rights to Corona, not the same thing. |
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Originally posted by jbruner
If everyone is so fed up with big beer ownership, why does everyone ride Brooklyn’s train? They have minority investment by Kirin Ichiban, which is an AB InBev subsidiary, and joint ventures with Carlsberg, a huge multinational brewery.
Not that I care much about Brooklyn Brewery, or their beer.......
But, I do not see where Kirin is listed as a subsidiary of AB-InBev.
I do see that they handle distribution for Budwesier/Heineken in Japan.
They are reportedly in the process of handing over their Brazil beer operations to Heineken.
Anywho, Brooklyn must have had their ears burning, as they felt compelled to clear the air: http://brooklynbrewery.com/blog/uncategorized/lets-set-the-record-straight/
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Originally posted by jbruner
Signing up just to post in forums, and not contribute to the community in any other way than to insight arguments sounds much like trolling to me. Reasonable questions for debate have answers that can be interpreted any way from differing opinions; if you weren’t trying to be contemptuous you should have just stated your opinion, it would have also come off less troll like.
+1. People can beat around the Busch here if they want, but a user who has no previous contributions to the site, who is brand new to the site and introduces themselves with aggressive posts like we’ve seen in this thread, the logical conclusion from long-timers here is "troll." Also the "familiarity" the user has of other users who post on the forums - especially in the context of macro’s involvement in "craft" - leads many to believe they’re either a former RB user who left after XY Ventures’ minority investment in the site or a current user who is simply using a sock-puppet account. Originally posted by jbruner
The average consumer does not know which brands are actually craft and which are "crafty", which is what I feel like most of these beer rating websites should be attempting, informing the average consumer. I don’t think he is trying to portray them in a rosy light, but as we are trying to do here, there are differing opinions in debates. I feel that if it were not for AB, there would be far less innovation and technology in American brewing. Think of Mitch Steele, the brewmasters for Sierra Nevada or Southern Tier, employees at the Bruery and 7venth Sun, and countless others all former Anheuser employees. Do I like their sales tactics, no, but plenty of other large breweries do pay for play, including Boston Beer Co and Dogfish, which is what I feel JoeT was trying to convey.
And other people in this thread have put Brooklyn on the list of moral craft breweries if I am not wrong. I was just trying to point out that it is not just the breweries that are completely owned that have AB InBev in their back pockets. Look into Widmer, Kona, Redhook, Full Sail, Terrapin, Wynwood, Brooklyn, Ballast Point, etc, and those are just AB.
I’d go further and say that the average consumer * doesn’t care* about which brands are actually craft and which are "crafty." People on RB are like the 1% of the craft beer world (though I’d venture it’s probably an even smaller number than that). I know the "I don’t watch sports because InBev sponsors the NFL, MLB, NBA, MLS, cricket, arena football, etc..." hardliners won’t agree with this, but there’s a huge difference between made up companies that were the first wave of "crafty" beers (think Coors "Blue Moon" or AB’s "Green Valley Brewing Stone Mill Pale Ale", which I always saw next to Stone beers in the grocery store) and the breweries in their High End unit which are wholy owned subsidiaries or the breweries that are now "tainted" because they happen to have a 20%, 15%, or 0.01% minority stake in a brewery. |
Originally posted by jbruner
... Look into Widmer, Kona, Redhook, Full Sail, Terrapin, Wynwood, Brooklyn, Ballast Point, etc, and those are just AB.
Wait. Full Sail? Are they not wholly employee-owned? |
