Originally posted by rpattinson
Germans don’t call their top-fermented beers ales, so I think it’s a bit condescending if we from English-speaking countries do.
America is the only place that matters anyway, so who cares. |
Originally posted by SilkTork
Originally posted by jjpm74
Originally posted by rpattinson
And exactly what is an Ale?
In English, the term for top fermented beer is Ale.
It’s common to divide ales and lagers by where the yeast ferments, though there are ale yeasts which ferment at the bottom - a number of British brewers use them - most notably Fullers. The resulting beer tends to be cleaner than the average ale, though still recognisably ale.
The temperature at which the fermentation takes place is more decisive in the character of a beer. A cooler temperature results in a slower fermentation which gives a cleaner, dryer, crisper tasting beer. A warmer temperature results in a faster fermentation which gives a fuller, fatter, sweeter, butterier, fruitier tasting beer.
I’ve not had many Kolsch, but all the ones I’ve had have been unmistakenly lagers. The history, attitude and thrust of the brewing of these beers has been to hit the pilsner market. They are brewed, marketed and taste like lagers.
Calling a Kolsch an ale is like calling Fullers ESB a lager because it’s bottom-fermented. People can and do call Kolsch an ale, and by some text books they’d be right, but they are calling a walking, quacking, bad-tempered duck a cow, and that can’t be right.
I ahve used the Fuller’s strain many time and it in no way ferments on the bottom. In fact, it is a true top-cropping yeast, meaning, not only does it ferment on the top of the beer but it creates such a densely populated head that it can be cropped by scooping yeast off the top of the beer.
Anybody here arguing that Kolsch is somehow anything but an ale;
1) Has not read Eric Warner’s book. He graduated from Weihenstephen, majored in German studies and...whatever you might know about the style, he knows a lot more.
2) Has never brewed professionally. In breweries these days, less than 1% of all beer produced goes through maturation and conditioning without actually spending some time at 32F...ie. lagering. |
Originally posted by MrFacto
Originally posted by rpattinson
It’s fermented with a German top-fermenting yeast strain. Not the same thing as an Ale strain.
Ok... lets break it down...
Could you please clarify?
1. Is it classified as Saaccharomyces Cerevisiae or S Cervisiae var carlsbergenis?
2. Is this yeast polypoloid or allotetrapoloid?
3. How does it flocculate?
4.Does it have a melibiase?
5. How does it use maltoetraose?
6. Will it grow and propogate at 37C?
7. Does the yeast form large or small colonies? Chains or no chains?
Please site your source on your information as well....
Can anyone else hear crickets chirping?
Well put sir. |
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Originally posted by erway
Originally posted by MrFacto
Originally posted by rpattinson
It’s fermented with a German top-fermenting yeast strain. Not the same thing as an Ale strain.
Ok... lets break it down...
Could you please clarify?
1. Is it classified as Saaccharomyces Cerevisiae or S Cervisiae var carlsbergenis?
2. Is this yeast polypoloid or allotetrapoloid?
3. How does it flocculate?
4.Does it have a melibiase?
5. How does it use maltoetraose?
6. Will it grow and propogate at 37C?
7. Does the yeast form large or small colonies? Chains or no chains?
Please site your source on your information as well....
Can anyone else hear crickets chirping?
Well put sir.
You really don’t get German styles at all do you?
Saaccharomyces Cerevisiae does not = Ale yeast.
Look, not everything top-fermewnting is an Ale. Try taking a look at "American Handy Book of Brewing , Malting and Auxiliary Trades", by Wahl & Henius, Chicago 1902. I’ll take that as an authority, thank you.
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Originally posted by erway
Anybody here arguing that Kolsch is somehow anything but an ale;
1) Has not read Eric Warner’s book. He graduated from Weihenstephen, majored in German studies and...whatever you might know about the style, he knows a lot more.
2) Has never brewed professionally. In breweries these days, less than 1% of all beer produced goes through maturation and conditioning without actually spending some time at 32F...ie. lagering.
I’d get in touch with Gaffel them and tell how stupid they are:
http://www.gaffel.de/index.php?nc=46 |
Originally posted by erway
Originally posted by SilkTork
Calling a Kolsch an ale is like calling Fullers ESB a lager because it’s bottom-fermented.
I ahve used the Fuller’s strain many time and it in no way ferments on the bottom. In fact, it is a true top-cropping yeast, meaning, not only does it ferment on the top of the beer but it creates such a densely populated head that it can be cropped by scooping yeast off the top of the beer.
That’s interesting. Did you use Fuller’s yeast, something cultured from a bottle of 1854, or a Wyeast clone? And did you use a cylindroconical fermenter (I know these can be purchased for homebrewing in America)?
Brewing with closed cylindroconical fermenter does encourage yeasts to flocculate at the bottom. Yeasts will behave differently in different circumstances, as you are aware.
If you used a true strain of Fuller’s yeast, and used a cylindroconical fermenter, yet the yest flocculated at the top it may have been to do with the size of your fermenter, and perhaps if you used one the same size as Fuller’s themselves use then perhaps the yeast may behave in the same way.
It’s difficult to know - but your personal experiences are valid and a useful addition to the conversation. |
Originally posted by SilkTork
Originally posted by erway
Originally posted by SilkTork
Calling a Kolsch an ale is like calling Fullers ESB a lager because it’s bottom-fermented.
I ahve used the Fuller’s strain many time and it in no way ferments on the bottom. In fact, it is a true top-cropping yeast, meaning, not only does it ferment on the top of the beer but it creates such a densely populated head that it can be cropped by scooping yeast off the top of the beer.
That’s interesting. Did you use Fuller’s yeast, something cultured from a bottle of 1854, or a Wyeast clone? And did you use a cylindroconical fermenter (I know these can be purchased for homebrewing in America)?
Brewing with closed cylindroconical fermenter does encourage yeasts to flocculate at the bottom. Yeasts will behave differently in different circumstances, as you are aware.
If you used a true strain of Fuller’s yeast, and used a cylindroconical fermenter, yet the yest flocculated at the top it may have been to do with the size of your fermenter, and perhaps if you used one the same size as Fuller’s themselves use then perhaps the yeast may behave in the same way.
It’s difficult to know - but your personal experiences are valid and a useful addition to the conversation.
No matter the source (Wyeast, White Labs, BSI etc...) or the brewing conditions, this yeast ferments in the mid-high 60s F and flocculates like no other yeast on earth. It is a cerevisae and it in no way resembles an uvarum strain. |
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Originally posted by rpattinson
Originally posted by erway
Originally posted by MrFacto
Originally posted by rpattinson
It’s fermented with a German top-fermenting yeast strain. Not the same thing as an Ale strain.
Ok... lets break it down...
Could you please clarify?
1. Is it classified as Saaccharomyces Cerevisiae or S Cervisiae var carlsbergenis?
2. Is this yeast polypoloid or allotetrapoloid?
3. How does it flocculate?
4.Does it have a melibiase?
5. How does it use maltoetraose?
6. Will it grow and propogate at 37C?
7. Does the yeast form large or small colonies? Chains or no chains?
Please site your source on your information as well....
Can anyone else hear crickets chirping?
Well put sir.
Saaccharomyces Cerevisiae does not = Ale yeast.
I would love to hear what ANY Doctor of fermentation science would have to say to that.
Originally posted by rpattinson
Look, not everything top-fermewnting is an Ale. Try taking a look at "American Handy Book of Brewing , Malting and Auxiliary Trades", by Wahl & Henius, Chicago 1902. I’ll take that as an authority, thank you.
Kolsch as we know it was not a style at that time. It would be 2 decades before it was brewed with any sort of regularity. In addition, you obviously don’t know who Eric Warner is. Educate yourself. |
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Originally posted by erway
Originally posted by SilkTork
Originally posted by erway
Originally posted by SilkTork
Calling a Kolsch an ale is like calling Fullers ESB a lager because it’s bottom-fermented.
I ahve used the Fuller’s strain many time and it in no way ferments on the bottom. In fact, it is a true top-cropping yeast, meaning, not only does it ferment on the top of the beer but it creates such a densely populated head that it can be cropped by scooping yeast off the top of the beer.
That’s interesting. Did you use Fuller’s yeast, something cultured from a bottle of 1854, or a Wyeast clone? And did you use a cylindroconical fermenter (I know these can be purchased for homebrewing in America)?
Brewing with closed cylindroconical fermenter does encourage yeasts to flocculate at the bottom. Yeasts will behave differently in different circumstances, as you are aware.
If you used a true strain of Fuller’s yeast, and used a cylindroconical fermenter, yet the yest flocculated at the top it may have been to do with the size of your fermenter, and perhaps if you used one the same size as Fuller’s themselves use then perhaps the yeast may behave in the same way.
It’s difficult to know - but your personal experiences are valid and a useful addition to the conversation.
No matter the source (Wyeast, White Labs, BSI etc...) or the brewing conditions, this yeast ferments in the mid-high 60s F and flocculates like no other yeast on earth. It is a cerevisae and it in no way resembles an uvarum strain.
That’s fine. I accept that the yeast you used behaved as you said.
The discussion above which you quoted was in reference to some ale yeasts that British brewers use that bottom ferment. An American home-brewing example is Safale S-04. Fuller’s is a well known British brewer which uses a bottom fermenting yeast for their ales.
I’d like to be able to point you to a reliable web-site reference for this information but I am unable. But this is something that is known and talked about. Because it is known and talked about I thought I would use that as an example that what appears to be an easy clasification (all bottom fermenting yeasts produce lager) may not always be as easy as it appears.
The thinking goes like this:
"Kolsch uses a top fermenting yeast therefore it’s an ale."
The alternative thinking is that it presents as a lager, and uses some elements of lager production. The draw-back to classifying it as a lager is that it uses a top fermenting yeast. HOWEVER, there are examples of ales made with bottom fermenting yeasts (such as Fuller’s - or perhaps we can say Safale S-04 as that may be an example you are aware of), so therefore the strict thinking that Kolsch is an ale may need adjustment along the lines that some ales are made from bottom fermenting yeasts.
I hope this is clear. I am not trying to invent something - I am just making observations.
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